Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W. October 24, 2013

Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W. October 24, 2013
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
BEFORE
TdE
UNITED
PATENT
STATES
TRTAL NOS.:
PADENT
PATENT
October 24, 2013
TRIAL
PATENT
T
NOS.:
ONER:
through
2013-00087
7,945,544;
7,945,539;
7,949,662;
8,001,096
PERSONALWEB
TECHNOLOGIES,
EMC CORPORATION
DAVID A.
FARBER
W.
24,
State
Boston,
RONALD
D.
INC.
LACHMAN
OF
PH.D.
2013
Hale And
Dorr LLP
Street
Massachusetts
Rosemary F. Grogan, RPR,
' "an ‘ .4»
VMWARE,
a.m.
Pickering
60
&
and
CLARK,
9:20
Cutler
LLC
COMMUNICATIONS
October
.» .—~
THE
6,415,280;
DOUGLAS
Reporter:
IN
TRADEMARK OFFICE
DEPOSITION
Wilmer
BOARD
5,978,791;
OWNERS:
INVENTOR:
AND
IPR 2013*0O082
& LEVEL 3
PET
AND APPEAL
CSR No.
z .=... .v «- .:¢.9-“rm s- ‘
112993HH
v- ~,.~ 2- .1 u ._ '
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
V‘v’WVV.1’16I1(1€1‘SOI11Cg8.1SCI‘V06$.I11 I 5
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
APPEARANCI
Behalf
of
the
By:
OWNER:
Joseph A.
XIXON
901
PATENT
&
Rhoa,
VANDERHYE,
N.
Glebe
Arlington,
Esquire
P.C.
Road
VA
22203
703~816-4043
jar@nixonVan.com
of
By:
FMC
CORPORATION and VMWARE,
Cynthia
3.
Vreeland,
By:
Peter M.
3y:
Tyler Lacer,
WILMER
60
CUTLER
State
Boston,
Dichiara,
Esquire
Esquire
Esquire
PICKERING
INC.:
(afternoon
HALE
AND
DORR
session)
LLP
Street
MA
02109
617-526-6000
Cynthia.vree1and@wi1merha1e.com
peter.dichiara@wi1merha1e.com
tyler.1acey@wi1merha1e.com
,
,
202-220-415 8
. E,-we w,§£_..,§, , W
-1,1,,”
. 1...
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
WWW.henders0n1ega1serVices.c0m
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
1
October 24, 2013
INDEX
2
WITNESS:
DOUGLAS W.
3
CROSS-EXAMINATION
4
By Mr.
6
REDIRECT
7
By Mr.
OF
EXAMINATION
CLARK,
PH.D.
PAGE
Rboa
NO.
4
EXAMINATION
Dichiara
119
8
9
10
INDEX
11
CLARK
12
NUMBER
13
Exhibit
1
2
16
17
REPLY
HXHT?
T
Webpage Merriam—Webster
"Metadata"
Exhibit
EXHIBITS
DESCRIPTION
14
15
TO
PAGE
NO.
55
Definition
Webpage Webopedia.com
56
"Metadata" Definition
Exhibit
3
Excerpt
from American
18
Heritage Dictionary
19
"Co11ection"
109
Definition
20
21
(Original exhibits were retained by Attorney Rhoa)
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
DOUGLAS
W.
CLARK,
PH.D.,
having been
satisfactorily identified by the production of a
driver's license,
was
examined
and
and duly sworn by the Notary Public,
testified
as
follows:
CROSS—EXAMINATION
BY
MR.
RHOA:
Q.
Would you please
A.
Douglas Clark,
Philadelphia
Q.
Sorry.
A.
Yes.
Q.
Are you the
/
St.
James Place,
Philadelphia?
six
same
Douglas
Clark who was
I
Q.
And that earlier deposition was
is
deposed
IPR proceedings?
A.
2013;
The
2215
and address.
--
earlier in these
will
state your name
am.
that
in July of
right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
I'm going to hand you
identify what
some documents,
I'm going to hand you on the
I
record.
first
is
your
reply declaration
then next
is
your
reply declaration in IPR 2013-00083;
szv.:2AS.<I~":m“ziu’ L‘:»i‘i§x'¢a3£v.»L«£.$'yaw’.2
' < ‘aaM;z.éa<'.a.A;é2z1v»fi>.sr"As\s‘k)ax.3S,—:. ;n.sz‘r*“‘Mww‘am
- "m.;~mnmv.».2a>;mn
in
and
IPR 2013-00082;
~
-m2.m'.x's.s«2a>au.~¢sr.4. . .'»=~'~,.-mm--:* ~’/- V ~ «-w==w'
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
next
is
is
your
your
October 24, 2013
reply
reply
declaration
declaration
your
reply declaration
have
your
reply
in
has
exhibit
an exhibit
declaration
Exhibit
in
IPR
IPR
declaration
And we're
separate
in
in
2013-00084;
2013-00085;
2013-00086;
in
not
IPR
IPR
For
ZPR
is
2013-00082
and
to mark
each of
number on it.
next
is
then
we
2013-00087.
going
numbers because
next
these
these
instance,
as
already
your
identified
reply
as
1081.
10
Do
you
have
your
six
reply
declarations
11
in
12
front
of
you?
A.
I
do.
Q.
Are
13
14
signed
in
these
these
six
the
reply declarations
that
you
IPRS?
15
A.
16
believe
I will
refrain from checking every page,
but I
they are.
17
Q.
18
19
No.
Next,
5,649,196
identified
as
I
to
would
like
Woodhill,
Exhibit
to
hand
you
U.S.
W-O-O-D-H-I-L-L,
Patent
which
is
1005.
20
Do
21
A.
I
0.
Is
you have
Woodhill
in
front
of
you?
do.
22
this
the Woodhill
document
,1 i& .;
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
that
you
.\.§, —/1: rm,
.7 W, ,,,—,.;
,
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
referred
also
in
your
A.
It
Q.
Next,
known
front
to
to
of
reply
declarations?
is.
as
I
would
Kantor,
like
hand
you
Exhibit
1004,
K—A—N~T—O—R.
you
have
Exhibit
1004
this
the
Kantor document
to
Kantor
in
you?
Yes.
Q.
Is
your
reply
It appears
to be.
Q.
Any
to
A.
No.
Q.
Next
No.
reason
5,978,791
referred to
in
believe
I'm going to
IPR 2013-00082.
Is
at
that
you
referred
declarations?
A.
Patent
to
Do
A.
in
October 24, 2013
which
this
least
hand you
is marked
the
one
that
'791
of
it's
a
copy
of
Exhibit
patent
your
not?
U.S.
1001
that
in
you
reply declarations?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Who
A.
The drafting was done by me and the attorneys,
drafted
but the opinions
your
six
reply
represented in
Q.
Who
prepared
A.
The very first drafts
,
the
WV
first
the
declarations?
drafts
drafts
were
\,;:«<‘-&‘& ., ,. ..i,\,.....
o:
are
each
all mine.
one?
the attorneys.
,,.. .:. »,.
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
7
Q.
the
How many drafts
did you
remember
exchange with
attorneys?
A.
was more
The process was not so organized as
——
that.
there weren't like numbered drafts.
It
There
were edits going back and forth and there were phone
conversations.
you know,
Q.
would
And it was
first draft,
Did the
redline
somewhat more haphazard then,
second draft,
attorneys
them and
email
email
final draft.
you drafts and you
back
to
them?
A.
Yes
and vice versa.
Q.
Which attorneys were emailing you drafts?
A.
Mr.
Dichiara,
Q.
How
do
A.
L—A—C-E—Y.
you
Mr.
spell
Lacey.
that?
I am blanking on Corey's
but his first name is Corey.
last name at all,
And I
last name
do not know Andrea's
but his first name is Andreas
(sic).
Q.
ho you still have copies of those emails?
A.
I
have
at
You didn't
I
least
some.
I'm not
delete any of
those,
sure
I
have
did you?
might have.
How much time did you spend working on your
*"‘mu‘ah1»m-‘1"N‘La’’-m.;»1.a-m--mmm
mmmm.mu.mv~mm‘=21.. w'>; ~vm;a:.s».~. 2e.‘
1s.n-u~.x.w
ya.
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWW.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
8
1
six
2
reply declarations?
A.
So ballpark, more than 10 hours each.
I would
3
say less than 30 hours each and different amounts for
4
different ones.
5
Q.
Have you been retained by any company other
6
than EMC or VMware in connection with any o: the patents
7
involved
in
8
these
MR.
9
A.
19
NetApps
11
Q.
IPR
s?
DICHIARA:
I have not.
Objection,
outside the scope.
Beg your pardon.
Wait.
-Anyone
12
MR.
else?
DICHIARA:
I'm not
sure
if
finished the
13
first answer before the second question came in.
14
A.
So NetApps,
I had like a two-hour retention
15
which I think we discussed last time,
16
that was;
some time in the spring.
17
Q.
Anyone
18
A.
No.
19
20
MR.
BY
MR.
21
22
and I forget when
else?
DICHIARA:
Same objection.
RHOA:
Q.
What did you do to prepare
for this
deposition?
,, .,»,——,,~:. -ay.-.,,~,,
,;r,§- ,-., ~,
~-,,,.,, .11.,»
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
A.
I
—-
declarations
8
let’s
October 24, 2013
see.
On my own,
and the patents
phone conversations with
and the
I
reviewed the
references.
I had
the attorneys and the most
intense work has been in the last day I arrived on
Tuesday and we spent sometime Tuesday night and then all
of yesterday.
Mr.
Q.
Who
A.
I met with
could
Are
affect
A.
--
you meet
——
I
with?
know what you mean.
Dichiara and Miss Vreeland and Mr.
Q.
I
did
I
you
your
So as
have
taking
any medications
it's
Q.
'79l
today
that
testimony?
I have -— may have explained last time,
type one diabetes.
I
take insulin.
doubt that will affect my testimony.
but
Lacey.
And I
It's very unlikely
not completely impossible.
So
patent,
in
these
one
patent,
one
for
patent,
and one
A.
Yes.
Q.
Is
it
specifications
for
the
six
the
your
of
'28O
‘539
for the
all
IPRS,
one
patent,
understanding
six
of
have
patent,
patent,
‘O96
we
one
one
for
IPR
for
for the
the
the
'544
'662
right?
that
the
those patents
are
the
same?
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-4158
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
;
I
October 24, 2013
refer to True Name patents,
understand that
A.
Yes.
Q.
in the
I'm talking about
specifications
there's reference to
things
like
that,
MR.
filenames,
those patents?
of
these patents,
addresses,
Objection.
I'm not positive about origins,
Do
you
A.
I
Q.
Please
origins,
right?'
DICHIARA:
Q.
will you
have
the
'791
patent
in
but
I believe
front
o:
do.
refer to
the
'79l
patent
at
lines 29 through 35 in the Summary section.
column
3,
Are you
there?
tell
A.
Yes.
Q.
Can you briefly read lines
me
when
you've
read
I
have
Q.
So
the
read
through 35
and
them?
(Witness
A.
29
doing
as
requested)
them.
specification refers
to
a
data
item,
correct?
,
202-220-415 8
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
A.
Yes.
Q.
The
origin,
October 24, 2013
specification also refers
location
A.
Yes.
Q.
Is
the
and address,
correct?
name
the
part
of
data
to a name,
item?
No.
origin part
location
address
of
part
part
the
of
of
data
the
the
item?
data
data
item?
item?
A.
No.
Q.
Is there a difference between determining
something
and
saving
something?
MR.
DICHIARA:
Objection,
outside the
A.
I do not understand the question.
Q.
Do
you have
"determining"
MR.
an
understanding of what
scope.
the word
means?
DICHIARA:
Same objection,
outside the
scope.
A.
In any particular
In the
context
context?
of the
technology involved here
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-2204] 5 8
www.henderson1ega1serVices.corn
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
with
these
patents
MR.
A.
So
October 24, 2013
and the
DICHIARA:
I
art
Same
cited?
objection.
think at least one of the patents uses
the word "determining" in the claims.
word seems
so
ordinary and -—
and not
And "saving,"
the
the
same.
I'm not I'm not following the question.
Q.
Is
there a difference between determining
something and saving something?
MR.
DICHIARA:
Same
objection,
outside
the
scope.
A.
I
need more context.
Q.
Would
determining a
MR.
A.
there
data
be
a
difference
item and saving
DICHIARA:
Same
between
a data
item?
objection.
Determining a data item?
So first,
I don't
understand what determining a data item might mean.
I
guess
I'm not able
to answer
So
the question whether
there's a difference between determining and saving.
Q.
Would there be
a difference
MR.
Can
DICHIARA:
he
finish
~the
answer?
Thanks.
Were
you finished?
Sounded
like
you were
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
www.henders0n1ega1serVices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
13
1
2
3
4
stili going.
BY MR.
RHOA:
Q.
Would
MR.
6
scope.
7
A.
9
there
determining data
5
8
Sorry.
and
data" might mean.
What's
10
MR.
a
Same
DICHIARA:
Same
A.
Very generally,
13
Q.
Is
15
determining?
16
it
MR.
scope;
18
A.
objection,
safe to
say the
than the
DICHIARA:
Same
objection,
outside the
form.
So I'm sure if one opened a dictionary and
20
would see different definitions,
22
ordinary meaning of
ordinary meaning of
looked up "determining"
Q.
outside the
keeping somehow.
19
21
the
vague.
di“erent
17
outside
your understanding of saving?
12
is
objection,
I need more context.
scope;
saving
between
I do not know what "determining
11
14
difference
saving data?
JICHIARA:
So again,
Q.
be
Is
it
safe to
and looked up "saving," you
say the
so yes.
ordinary meaning of
copying something is different than the ordinary meaning
Henderson Legal Services, Inc,
202-220-415 8
3 WWW.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
of determining
MR.
A.
October 24, 2013
something?
DICHIARA:
Same
objections.
Scoping and saving,
ordinary meaning?
So I
may make a copy of a document by sticking it in a copy
machine.
Then I would have a copy.
I might save a
document by putting it -— it in a desk drawer.
Save it,
I might save it by putting it —— yeah, putting it in a
file,
file cabinet,
So I
or something like that.
think they're different,
ordinary
meanings.
Q.
Do
1-8,
you remember
lists
from
referencing the MULTIS,
the
Kantor
document?
Yes.
Q.
choose
Is
which
A.
I
Q.
Do
reply
the MULTIS
duplicate
list
to
think that's
you recall
for allowing a user
save
or
to
delete?
generally right.
stating that
in one
of your
declarations?
A.
there's
Q.
I don't recall
something like
that exact phrase,
that in
but I'm sure
there.
If you can refer to the —— refer to your reply
declaration regarding the
‘O96 patent at page 17.
«
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
,
www.henderson1ega1serVices.com
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
(Witness
BY
MR.
"the
as
requested)
RHOA:
Q.
Are
A.
Yes.
Q.
You
user
chooses
from the
you
there?
see
on
MULTIS
lines
which
I
Q.
So the MULTIS
3,
and
duplicates
to
4,
you
save
state
or
that
delete
see
that.
list
could be
used for
saving or
right?
A.
Yeah.
—- presents
identical
user has
2,
file"?
A.
deleting,
is
doing
So
the
a group
content,
way
of
it works
files
but perhaps
the ability
to
signal
is
the MULTIS
that are
——
have
different names.
the
list
deletion of
And the
--
the
user's intention to have deleted certain of those copies
and not certain others
So
that are
deleted are
deleted are
rescued,
Q.
in
I
saved.
guess,
A user
of
that
those copies.
sense,
deleted.
So
it's
the
And
ones
——
the ones
saved in
the
the
ones
that are
not
sense of
not deleted.
can mark
items
on
the MULTIS
list
with
right?
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWW.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
A.
Yes.
Q.
Can
whether
files
A.
one
October 24, 2013
looking
marked
at
with
a
the
MULTIS
D have
list
been
tell
deleted?
One could not tell only by looking at the
MULTIS list whether a file had -— had yet been deleted.
One
learns
deletion,
from
the MULTIS
list
the
but not a record of the
—-
intention
for
future
of any actual
deletion.
Q.
Does
marking
a
file
on
the
MULTIS
list
with
a
D necessarily mean that that file will be automatically
deleted?
A.
No.
The file is deleted by running another
command to actually go and do the dirty work of
deletion.
Q.
And that
other command doesn't
run simply by marking
a
file with
a
D,
automatically
right?
17
A.
That is right.
18
Q.
So it's entirely possible that if a file gets
19
marked with a D in the MULTIS list,
20
reason or another,
MR.
that
it may,
for one
not end up getting deleted?
DICHIARA:
It would not
Objection.
——
it would be peculiar for
the
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Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
user to mark
the
essentially,
forget to delete them.
possible.
files
People
for deletion and then,
can make mistakes.
But that's
to work.
If you mark
supposed to
Q.
change
delete
You
his
the way the
them with a D,
system is
supposed
then you're
them.
think
it
would be
or her mind about
MR.
Everything is
DICHIARA:
peculiar
for
a
user
to
something?
Objection,
vague;
outside
the
scope.
A.
I
assume you mean
something with a D,
I
want
-—
I
the morning,
mark
and then an hour later,
say,
really meant that other
with a D before
that a
in
running
scenario you're
Q.
That's
A.
So
I
MR.
one
the
actual
file
Oh,
no,
to be marked
delete
command?
Is
outside
the
--
possible
scenario.
--
DICHIARA:
Objection,
vague,
scope.
A.
These are actions undertaken by humans,
assume people
can
change
their minds
in
that
and I
sense,
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Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
18
Q.
So
it's
marked with a
entirely possible that
D on the MULTIS
necessarily mean that that
list,
file
is
it
if a
file gets
doesn't
going to be deleted,
right?
MR.
A.
then
DICHIARA:
Same
objections.
Under your changing—one‘s—mind scenario,
-—
then
~-
then
that's
true.
The user
could make
another decision before running the delete command.
would call that,
that
though —— actually,
I
I would say that
--
I'm imagining the
of —— list of files,
sticks
some Ds
in.
user
maybe a big list of files,
And maybe goes
back and sticks some more Ds in.
reconsiders
a previous
I
a
could see
lot of
I
actual
delete
committed to
scenarios
command is
in
work in progress until
Q.
referring
decision
would think
the Ds
What
faced with a list
to lunch and comes
And,
you know,
and moves
like
his
Ds
around.
that.
that when
the user runs
when the user is
the MULTIS
and
file.
the
kind of
It's
like
a
that point.
is the deletion command that you're
to?
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWWhendersonlegalservices.corn
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
19
I
cannot recall
Is
it
MR.
on page
it exactly.
190
DICHZARA:
of
Just
for
Record
(Record
A.
I
see
not sure it's
all
a
break here.
from door)
Discussion)
Read)
the command on page
not in other places
He names everything after himself;
called?
fwkcl7d,
case.
So
the
I'm
too.
A.
causes
command
of Kantor.
What
Q.
that
190
Q.
lower
is
would need to
Kahtor?
(interruption
(Off
I
when
files
the
user
hits
that
command,
that were marked with
that
D to be deleted,
right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Does
the
A.
No.
The MULTIS list is a record of -— well,
MULTIS
list
itself
delete
the list that is produced by the software is
of
the
—-
of the repeated contents
signatures
in the big database,
in the CS list.
annotates
to
,
202-220-41 5 8
it with Ds
——
files?
just a list
in the
~-
And then a person
to instruct —— well,
to give
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
20
input
to
the
actually do
command that
the user
later
runs
to
the deletion.
So it's not right to say the list itself
does
any deletion.
Q.
After a
the MULTZS
list
A.
10
the
runs
changed
to
I do not know.
either way.
removal
user
of
If you
the
—-
I
filename with
reflect
I
——
if
——
I
the D
fwkc17d to delete
those
files,
is
deletions?
could see it -- it going
there's
guess
not an
automatic
it would be
removal
of
--
11
Q.
12
13
Is
there
any
MR.
DICHIARA:
with
his
answer.
A.
And so
~I'm not
sure
if
he
was
finished
14
I
can
see how it wouldn't be
harmful
to
15
leave the MULTIS list alone because after you've done
16
the
round of deletion,
you're kind of done with the
17
MULTIS list.
That's what it was for.
Next time you run
18
the program that generates the MULTIS list,
19
fresh
you'll get a
one.
20
So
leaving it
around seems
harmless.
I
21
can also imagine it might have been -— there might have
22
been
some
automatic
removal
of
the
-—
of
the deleted
vi,
m. 5» mm 3"»/,.'x'§vc' Aw. *V’7:
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-4158
www.henders0n1ega1serViCes.c0m
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
files
October 24, 2013
from the MULTIS
Q.
Does
list.
Kantor
describe
either
0:
scenarios?
that
A.
So
that,
Q.
You're
I
do
not
not know.
aware
describes modifying
deletion
I would like
all
Q.
the MULTIS
So
reviewing)
I'm ready
for the
question to
again.
RHOA:
Q.
You're
not
aware of any description
describes modifying the MULTIS
deletion
occurs,
A.
That's
Q.
So
as
describe that
A.
if
Sure.
come
that
a
right?
THE WITNESS:
MR.
after
just to check my declarations,
(Witness
BY
list
in Kantor
occurs?
A.
that's
of any description
list
in Kantor
after
a
question mark?
correct.
far
as
you're
concerned,
Kantor
does
not
happening?
So I'm not aware of that happening,
but it's a
big volume and —- and maybe there's something in there.
..,_
_, .,. , ..,,.. ,.,,.,
.,. ...,,.,...s,.—,,2_,,,. ,_. _.:__,,._. ,__ pr
-NJ/'9
_> _\ ._ ,._.,,,V,, , .,,,,,_,,,,., , ,._,_,,,
, $, _,A .. ,..
, -,;..,,c~»,.
..,.,,_
, .,v~
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
22
Q.
As
you
description
sit here today,
you're not
aware of any
in Kantor of modifying the MULTIS
list
after
deletion?
A.
After
not aware
of
the deletion command has been run,
a description
MR.
RHOA:
Can
like
we
go
I'm
that.
off
the
record
for
a
second?
(Off
BY
MR.
Record
Discussion)
RHOA:
Q.
Is
there
A.
Yes,
there
Q.
Does
the
together with
or
an
Exclude
feature
in
Kantor?
is.
Exclude
separate
feature
from the
in
Kantor
MULTIS
work
feature
in
Kahtor?
A.
Let's
see.
So
I would say separately.
Exclude feature let's you mark files
main database,
The
in the CS list,
the
that you wish to be permanently banned
from this system.
So that anything with a matching
contents signature that anybody attempts to upload,
can’t be uploaded.
It‘s
like a black list.
So that works with the CS list.
I would
think the MULTIS list is a different feature allowing
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,
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Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
deletion of duplicates not banning forever of a
particular
Q.
file.
With the
you to mark a
A.
file
Exclude
feature,
in the CS
you
list,
say that
allows
right?
Yes.
In the
list,
I
Exclude
what
do
feature,
you mark
think it's X.
when
it
you mark a
file
with?
Are you okay with I
think --
Sure.
~- because
Sure.
file
in
you've marked does
future
files
A.
that
No.
attempts
the
Exclude
the CS
not
list
with
of
Kahtor,
an X,
excluded,
would be
excluded?
is
does
when
that
file
it?
It's
that
that when you mark
that means you don't want any of these
You keep the entry so that future
upload things
signature will
feature
get
list ever.
to
fine.
So my understanding
a file with an X,
in this
could check?
That's
In
you mark a
I
with
the
same
contents
fail.
But you also don't want the one you have
right now because
M
N.
it might be full
.
.,._9£.,,,,N, ,_ _....u;:,-.x,.
of malware or
,,,.», ,..,\-,._,,_,..,..a§,_£$L._‘,‘.), ,., EN
, ,_ .,,,,_,_,
., \,,,_. >
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
,
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
24
1
samething.
2
one.
3
4
You want to exclude everybody including that
Q.
X,
in
So what happens to the file you marked with an
your
opinion?
5
A.
So
6
Q.
Where does Kantor say that?
7
MR.
8
answer.
9
A.
that file
is
DICHZARA:
excluded also
Let
him
So it wouldn't make
finish
sense.
--
the
first
The whole feature
10
wouldn't make sense to allow a -- a —- a file like that
11
to survive in the system.
12
What survives is the flag in the —— not
13
the flag.
14
future attempt to upload this file will be allowed.
15
Q.
The line in the CS list that signals that no
Isn't the purpose
16
prevent duplicate files
17
MR.
18
A.
19
effectively,
20
me back up.
21
22
No.
DICHIARA:
of the Exclude
feature to
from being uploaded?
Objection.
It is to prevent —~ it is to ban,
a certain -- a file —— file contents
—— let
It is to ban permanently any file that
has a certain contents signature.
mum
"wx.ma,«~W--ms.‘
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PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
25
Q.
Where
does
marked with an X is
with
the
same
So
excluded as
DZCHIARA:
I
will
but
place.
The system has
Q.
it
-—
even
sense
Please
that.
"i'e
that
future
you
files
form.
at my declaration and look at
——
it's
got
to be
in
there
some
to work like that because it just
otherwise.
look.
(Witness
A.
the
opposed to
Objection,
look
Kantor,
wouldn't make
say that
signatures?
MR.
A.
Kantor
reviewing)
So I was not able to find a description of
Back up and ——
let's back up to the question,
actually.
Q.
Where does
with an X
future
in the CS
uploaded
A.
So
Kantor
list
files
is
I'm going to
a
——
I
to
excluded as
being
say because
don't want to use
file
you marked
opposed to
excluded?
-—
you mean actually the file
don't want
say that the
I'm going to assume
that
in the list got deleted.
excluded
seems
to be a
term
I
--
-- back up.
I understand the
issue
to be whether
excluding a file that's in the CS list, namely which
W"
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202-220-415 8
WWWhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
26
exists in your system,
causes the deletion of that file,
as well as the prohibition of uploading matching
contents
signatures
in
the
future.
And you were asking me to find support
for my view in the document.
And my answer is,
in part,
that I kind of don't need to because it's got to be in
there
some place.
It's
got to work like that because it
doesn't make sense otherwise to have a file that,
know,
you
could have —— have a virus or whatever in your
system.
That
is
not
sensible.
I did find a suggestion in support of
that,
page
although it does
117,
there's
seem kind of obvious,
a way to
that on
send an excluded list to
another system.
So that's contemplating putting a list
of
in
——
of entries
-—
a
list of
recommended exclusions
in the CS list format into a CS list in another system.
So
another
system,
with an X,
that would establish
where
there was
but no file,
MR.
DICHIARA:
(O””
BY
MR.
‘/v‘uo..}"'7 -
a line
the
in
situation
the
CS
in
list
unless they already had a file.
Off
the
Record
record.
Discussion)
RHOA:
am«amazmzwmmaxwwmammmiwfi
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202-220-415 8
WWW.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
27
Q.
Aren't
things that were
uploaded
and
the
was
a match
J_CHIARA:
A.
So can
I
Q.
How do
you
future
117
referring to
found?
Objection,
(Witness
aren't
on page
excluded when they were attempted to be
there
MR.
exclusions
outside the
reviewing)
get the question again,
know the exclusions
uploads
that
scope,
matched
please?
on page
and were
117
therefore
excluded?
MR.
So
suggestion
——
Objection,
DZCHIARA:
the
~—
second half of page
that you
can
make a file available
their
—~
--
117,
send a list of
to others.
as
a
recommended --
to others.
It says
And they can load it
systems.
And I
that it made sense
——
I
-—
cited that only for support
to have a line that says
without having the file.
situation
scope
form.
essentially recommended exclusions
into
outside the
I'm interpreting the passage
MR.
A.
DICHZARA:
that would be
"exclude"
So that would be the
the result of a deletion of
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PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
28
an existing file when someone decides to put the X in.
Q.
Let‘s
Exclude
Feature
take
a
look at page
is discussed there,
A.
Yes.
Q.
Doesn't
page
81
o:
81
of Kantor.
The
right?
Kantor
state
that
"future
uploads of the same material can then be quickly and
automatically recognized as
A.
redundant
I'm not seeing that.
or duplicate"?
Can you just point me to
where on the page?
Q.
Bottom paragraph
0:
(Witness
A.
So I
page
81.
reviewing)
interpret the bottom paragraph of page 81
to apply to the heading in the margin that says
exclamation point
thing in
capital N and not
the margin.
I
think
that
remarking material for exclusion,
to
the
ends
in
excludes
the
line
C all caps exclude,
et
cetera.
I
different
is
think that's
just describing some
thing and not the Exclude
feature.
Q.
Does
Kantor ever describe
deleting a
marked
with
an
MR.
202-220-415 8
that
X?
DICHIARA:
Objection,
'J.i;.'a».s7:>;a‘é\:;au;-".w.4‘9&4"V:vL?me.£m/.z:&»mt,;:5;a‘s=m"1rNx'&:IiL.w4a-*V’*“‘fimw.i\x7A:.u.é«‘amfl"*.Mzs1A}:{:.«.x:s;l«si5iaSi§;:3S.i$<x:*.: ;:;’w..u‘\Ms-mm-.»-;.:u.az.::.n4z..'aa»:ux:.m».vmV m;m.~.ml:=.:n.m<-v
,
file
scope,
form.
xx¢,;nwz&tA&au».-2‘mm«w..mum~m 4.44» \‘?i1zéB.§i$l1I3IL91«)a«m““»&’A£IlaXLr‘&' z'>Js5.l+1&n1$i:B:&I‘v2(«a.s>n"““1&2afi&.'
mus‘as
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
WWW.henderson1ega1serVices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
29
A.
So
I've
already said that
I'm not aware of
a
place where he describes deleting that exact file when
you put the X in there,
X in there,
although that must be what happens.
Is
a
that what you meant?
Q.
Why do
A.
The feature does not make
sense otherwise.
Q.
Isn't it true that a
is
match
is
A.
File
......
way:
is
say
"that must
file
be what happens"?
excluded only if
——
--
DICHIARA:
is
MR.
A.
you
found?
MR.
I
as a consequence of putting the
Objection
w~
__
DICHIARA:
——
form,
I would say that a
scope.
—-
I would put it this
That an attempted upload is —— is forbidden, which
think
is
the meaning of excluded.
it's
contents
signature matches
with
an X
in
Q.
Right.
Exclude
feature,
exclude
something
the
MR.
D
CS
Is
a line
forbidden if
that's marked
list.
So you have
you have
that's
ARA:
to,
to do
according to the
a comparison in order
trying to be
Objection,
to
uploaded?
scope,
form.
‘"
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-4158
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
5
October 24, 2013
30
A.
I
You
would say
—— you
—-
I
-—
I
think
that's
that the upload prohibition occurs because
your contents
signature,
the uploadee's
signature matched and excluded contents
Q.
a
file
about right.
Is
there any description
under this Excludes
contents
signature.
in Kantor of deleting
feature without doing a
comparison?
MR.
A.
DICHIARA:
Objection,
So under that feature,
scope,
you
—-
vague.
that matching is
required.
So if by comparison you mean the comparison
of
contents
the
two
signatures,
then
that wouldn't work.
You would have to look at the two contents
they have
Q.
to match.
So
it wasn't
signature and
if
you
in the
deleted
the
file
system anymore,
that
had
the
X
how could you do
a
and
comparison?
A.
The
warning.
line
in
with
an
stays
You delete
the
Q.
Kantor
line
CS
You
that
the
in
the
file,
CS
list.
It's
like
but you don't delete
a
the
list.
can't
find anything
describes
deleting a
in all
225 pages
of
file when you mark it
X?
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
31
MR.
If
DICHIARA:
you want
to
that
question,
A.
I'm --
MR.
Objection,
look through all
be my
DICHZARA:
objection.
Just
guest
Let
So
I
can't
just
speak
for
all
that in particular because
Q.
Exclude
what
I
I
didn't
don't really need to
it must be
it does not make sense
don't
think
it
feature to prevent
You
Kantor's
MR.
don't
goal
think
in
there
if you
makes
sense
duplicate
that
to
files
makes
sense
have
an
from being
at
all
in
is?
DICHIARA:
testimony,
A.
question
file around.
You
iploaded?
of that
The feature does not make sense.
Again,
the
answer
the
the pages.
look
leave
to
testimony.
that in particular.
some place.
finish
for the purpose
look for
for
225 pages
--
me
is mischaracterizing his
A.
mischaracterizes.
scope,
Objection,
and
mischaracterizes
his
form.
So that is not my understanding of the purpose
of the Exclude feature and Kantor has other ways
to
remove duplicates.
I‘
'~ u‘-nzmmaw
‘-“ *' em.»
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
,
www.henderson1ega1serVices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
Q.
the
What
Exclude
A.
is
October 24, 2013
your understanding o:
feature
It is,
as
the purpose of
then?
I've
said a few times now,
permanently any file whose contents
banning
signature matches
the excluded one including the one you now have at the
time -- well,
sorry.
Sorry.
At the
that file
is
Right.
time you exclude by marking the X,
around because
exists in your system.
it's
in
the
CS
You mark the X.
list
that
And not only
are future uploads of matching -— files with matching
contents signatures forbidden,
but the one you have is
deleted.
Q.
And where
A.
So
Kantor
DICHZARA:
Same
objections
—- we have been over this.
likely in there somewhere.
meaning of exclude seems
it
say this?
--
MR.
A.
does
I
as
before.
think
it
On the other hand,
is
the
so clear to me that maybe it --
isn't because maybe he doesn't need to be
so
specific.
Q.
files
Where does
marked with
an
Kantor
say that
you permanently ban
X?
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
wwwhendersonlegalservices.c0m
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
A.
That's -— that's my -— my,
interpretation.
exclude.
It's
MR.
said,
I
THE
BY
MR.
Q.
Exclude
is?
October 24, 2013
I guess,
florid
I guess it's just a way of saying
like
a blacklist.
DICHIARA:
Just for the record,
when you
guess that's my?
WITNESS:
Florid.
RHOA:
This goal that you're talking about of the
list,
where's
that
in
Kantor?
A.
What do you mean
Q.
What do you think the goal of the Exclude list
I'm sorry.
Exclude
A.
feature
"goal"?
What do you think the goal of the
is
in
Kantor?
To make it impossible for the files with that
same contents signature to exist in the system.
Q.
Impossible?
Impossible.
So if it's marked with a S,
A.
MR.
DICHIARA:
MR.
RHOA:
Marked with
I
think you
it won't stay
said 8.
Right.
an
S?
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWW.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
34
1
Q.
What happens when there's a match found in the
Exclude
3
4
feature?
A.
So I'm -— I assume you mean an attempted
upload of an excluded file matches —— well, you know
it's excluded because its content signature matches the
contents
signature
in the
line marked X.
And while I don't know the details,
I
know that the intent is that that file is not allowed in
the
system.
10
Q.
Is it automatically deleted, in your opinion?
11
A.
I don't —- whatever partial remnants or copy
12
or whatever exists in the course of the attempted
upload,
that goes away, but I don't know the details of
that.
Please
go
to page
103
of
Kantor.
Okay.
Top half,
do you see the word
"excluded"?
Yes.
What does
MR.
"if not S then zipfile deleted"
DICHIARA:
Objection,
misstates.
So I will need to study to give a precise
,_,,,.§.*,,) .,
,.
.,_lW,,,....,.,..,.,.,.
, , ..
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-4158
WWW.116I1d€I'SO1"11€ga1S€1‘V1C€S.COII1
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
35
answer,
but
I
assume
that
"if not
S"
means
if
there's
not an S already in the line or something like that.
Q.
deleted
And if
or
A.
there was
an
S
in the
line,
would it be
not?
So
I
need more
context.
this is a list of things,
I
mean
I
don't
--
and one oi things is excluded.
But I don't know what they're talking about actually in
this section,
Q.
was
so I need to investigate.
Didn't
you say that if there is a match,
it
automatically deleted?
(Witness
A.
Yes,
Q.
You
A.
So
I
reviewing)
did.
stand by that?
I
described the
scenario
of an exclude
the attempted uploading of an excluded file.
you match,
--
And when
in the contents signature matches, you were
not —- you were not allowed to be uploaded.
And whether that involves deleting
some ——
some data of —— involved with the attempted
upload,
I
Q.
~-‘'
don't know the details.
And
if
~.vsnzr
there's
an
V‘ In
8
there,
is
it
mt ‘»'»-:.«.m§;1.w’Iizx":>: 4IM2'1.-g:_.z’>~';cv.A9..=‘"i 1ut.J.-i'A?<.vr;J£=.«3>m3L
deleted
or
‘ -Mr‘
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWW.henders0n1ega1serVices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
36
A.
So I would need to investigate.
I would
assume the S is another line in the -— another flag ind
the contents in the CS list,
but I would need to
investigate to answer properly.
Q.
Go
ahead.
MR.
DICHIARA:
should feel
you
See
need
free
if
you
find the
S.
For a question like that,
look at the entire document,
you
if
to.
(Witness
A.
can
reviewing)
So progress report:
I've been looking for
option S and not finding an explanation for it.
So
I'm
not able to answer the question at the moment.
Q.
Let's
go
A.
One what,
Q.
154.
A.
Okay.
Q.
Is
to page
154
of
Kantor.
I'm sorry?
there a
description on page
154
of Kantor
of what the X does in the Exclude feature?
A.
There
is.
Q.
Where
is
A.
Special Column _17 Flags.
on page
%¢.s:.z2;zm:nvazs;a;ziaa.l». .¢a‘*~<"‘mm
,
202-220-415 8
that
on page
154?
The very last thing
154.
‘.\.'~u.‘.~.'~'mw'~'1.’ " “N” "W ’ ' Em‘
msasAze.:v:.2~;.2. ‘~*>:..;:L:4.;as.2.mw1».s. ~Vmm=*<:w:;z..;mv~‘.12¢mr.aa,a:~2;;.9Mmaa.x.m;u.<;34»;s;.va;~;;«r»mm.ce,m‘/an»ws.amm.-"~'M-.~‘n‘m;;.m‘~
.,. «‘..~m.>x-,1‘.. -'-5mg",m.;.~'»~
Henderson Legal Services, 1110.
WWW.henders0n1ega1serVices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
37
1
Q.
Can you read what it says?
2
A.
"X — eXclude" with a capital X,
"to exclude
3
from the system any file, or any zipfile which contains
4
any file, whose contents_signature matches one marked
5
with this flag."
5
7
Q.
file that's marked with the
8
9
10
Does it say anything there about deleting the
A.
flag?
1 While that is not stated here, it would be --
it would —— the feature does not make sense unless that
happens.
11
Q.
So you don't think that a goal or purpose of
12
the Exclude feature is to prevent duplicate
13
being uploaded?
14
A.
I do not.
15
sense.
15
occurrences
17
18
a
from
I mean duplicates, in the ordinary
It prevents duplicates of duplicates and all
Q.
of
files
of excluded files.
Why would you want to prevent all occurrences
file?
19
A.
Simplest answer is malware.
20
Q.
Where does it say in Kantor that a purpose of
21
22
the Exclude feature is to address malware problems?
A.
:
I'm not sure that he says that. I don't think %
.,-, ._.W.
, Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWWhendersonlegalservices.c0m
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
we had malware back
exclude
the
But that's
one
reason
to
files.
Q.
point
then.
Is
there
to that
Exclude
from being
anything
supports
feature
in
the
MR.
your
is
for
theory
that
that
preventing
you
the
could
purpose
files
of
with malware
system?
D:CHIARA:
question,
in Kantor
if
you're
Same
objection.
going
whole
document,
seems
that;
otherwise
it's
to
to
be
ask
an
That
him
to
type
review
invitation
mischaracterizing
to
of
the
do
his
testimony.
A.
exclude
So you
files
for
that contained
had
could use
any
——
the Exclude
reason you
feature
like.
I
that you didn't care
to
some evil property would be
a
——
to
thought a file
run because
a reason
to
it
exclude
that file.
Q.
is
for
Does
the
Kantor
purpose
of
ever
say that
addressing
the
files
Exclude
with
feature
evil
properties?
A.
No
--
MR.
DICHIARA:
objection.
That
Let
me make
my
kind of question,
L\:oim.7.1‘
statement.
Same
does
say,
Kantor
'22!‘LV*‘.~:"‘Jsa7
~“—~v.w'
2 '7 L’ *1
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
is
an
October 24, 2013
invitation
for
him
to
read
the
whole
document.
A.
So
Q.
Are
states
that
addressing
A.
I'm...
you
the
o:
Exclude
files
I
aware
with
feature
evil
doubt he uses
MR.
any
DICHIARA:
statement
is
for
in
Kantor
that
the purpose
of
properties?
--
I
object
to
the
form
of
that
question.
A.
I
doubt
could not
say,
expresses
a
that he uses
without looking closely,
similar
When
Can
the word
a
I
"evil,"
I
whether he
sentiment.
file
say,
is
marked with
when you get
to
a
——
a good
time
would be
fine with me but
--
Let's
one
then we'll
go
but
question
and
go
for
a
:
Okay.
When
that
file
a
file
necessarily
It
MR.
is
is
marked with
going
to
be
an
X
in
Kantor,
deleted
or
not?
is
--
DICHI
Objection
' mam
' "
scope,
~
'
form.
»..'«. v-n."*>’.~m’\» ‘WJE-xahig.’
' '~"z.SL.%?».L‘'Lwm..a>.°~;:=w.w. a.~.u.<<
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWW.hendersonlegalservices.c0m
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
40
A.
--
it is
going
to be deleted because
the meaning of exclude.
It's
No,
this
file
is
that's
not allowed.
excluded.
Q.
being
And
it's
deleted,
MR.
not
possible
that
it
would
end up
not
right?
DICHIARA:
Objection
misstates,
scope.
A.
It‘s hard to
absolutely possible,
idea
of
the
say that
but I
something is not
don't
——
that is
against the
feature.
Q.
You
A.
I
want
do.
to
take
a
break
now?
Thanks.
(Short Recess)
BY
MR.
RHOA:
Q.
In
Kantor,
exclusion process,
it's
deleted
or
MR.
A.
way,
but
I
I
is
a
If
a
its
deleted via
on
I
the
upload log before
scope,
could see
I would have
form.
it working either
to do research
in
find out.
file
in
Kantor
is
deleted,
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
the
deleted?
Objection
not know.
to
is
file
only after
DICHIARA:
do
File
that
do not know.
the document
Q.
it
is
that
file
,
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
still
in
the
A.
October 24, 2013
system or not?
So that's a little bit of a tricky question,
not meaning to criticize you.
systems
But in computer
~— most people actually know this nowadays
that when you
of wiping
delete a file,
it from the
face
it's
of
the
not
the
earth.
--
same
as
kind
It's
often
just a matter of preventing any reference to it.
So,
for example,
you might have
blocks on a disk that constitute a file.
you get to
that has
to
a way to point to
spot on
the disk
And if that directory entry is
good as not bare even though the bits
lying around on
Q.
would
the physical
then there's no way for you or anyone to refer
the file as
still
And the way
that file is because you have a directory
where the file is.
deleted,
some
have
Is
that
how
the
disk.
one
o:
interpreted
A.
Yes.
Q.
Does
the
CS
ordinary
deleted
list
in
as
of
Kantor
skill
in
the
are
art
1995?
list
files
that
have been deleted?
MR.
DICHIARA:
So it does,
Q,
“gab,
;m~.o,.r—m_,,,;_,M .; ‘am.’ ,,,7,,.,,. .,m.,mMm,m .,
Objection,
form.
in the case of excluded files,
., Vi.
,_ ._ .—V—..Q, .m , ,
#4
.—,.
W
W. V 5,,
it
\(‘ 3, . W
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
www.henderson1ega1serVices.c0m
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
lists
a
Q.
file
that was
Could
MR.
A.
MULTIS
October 24, 2013
In
D CH ARA:
case
those
So
the CS
list.
The entries
marked with
not leave
an X
MR.
MR.
Q.
were
are
——
deleted,
the
Q.
is
list,
the
deleted
answer.
say,
via
list.
the
So
I
the
the
-—
files
the
leave
——
sorry.
but for excluded files,
CS
list.
in your
theory
a
file
--
Objection,
misstates
~-
when you
your
answered that
theory that
files
last
question,
marked with
you
an X
right?
MR.
in
--
RHOA:
assuming
A.
of
not.
assuming
DICHIARA:
testimony
BY
are
regular deletion,
leave the CS
And you're
let's
reflected in the CS
files
the
deletions,
The exclude deletion,
the entry does
Q.
the case
Let him finish his
of
that gets
would say no,
In
--
the
list,
deleted.
DICHIARA:
Objection.
I was assuming that the Exclude feature works
only
sensible
Other
than
way.
the
Exclude
feature,
deleted
:'
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
Wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
are
not
in
the
MR.
A.
I would say
A.
right?
Objection,
there are
——
Q.
-—
I
times when
in
the
MR.
A.
than
CS
the
list,
Exclude
DICHIARA:
So no,
that's
the MULTIS
feature,
are
still
Actually deleted files?
Q.
That's
third
are
the
MR.
DECHIARA:
22
in the list,
the
than
in
A.
‘
asked you
not
21
files
scope
and
form.
files
that
in
the
about
question
CS
list.
deleted
was.
I'll
files.
read
the
time.
Other
files
deleted
but are going to be deleted,
A.
what
I'm sorry.
not right because
The
a
list to delete
feature,
Objection
Q.
question
question
For
right?
have not yet been deleted,
via
they are.
lost the’question.
Other
——
form.
when you‘ve made a MULTIS
duplicates
scope
--
DICHIARA:
--
example,
not
List,
DICHIARA:
MR.
are
CS
October 24, 2013
CS
the
list,
Exclude
feature,
deleted
right?
Objection
scope
and
form.
There might be a time when the deleted file is
but -— but only for a
short time because it
/‘
W
-
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-4158
wwwhendersonlegalserviceseom
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
hasn't yet
date,
-—
the CS
but not
Q.
Are
indicating
list hasn't been brought up
for
long.
you
aware
that
MR.
A.
October 24, 2013
the
D
o:
any
deleted
CH ARA:
statement
files
are
Objection
in
to
Kantor
in
the
CS
list?
scope
and
form.
Other than the excluded ones, I'm not aware oi
anything like
Q.
that,
What's
but neither have
the
purpose
of
the
I
looked for
upload
log
it.
in
Kantor?
A.
I'm going
to
look
in my
(Witness
A.
to
So
keep a
I
believe
reports,
if
that's
reviewing)
the purpose
of
the upload log
record of what happened when
is
the upload was
attempted.
Q.
already
So
the
occurred,
A.
Yes.
Q.
The
activity,
A.
upload
log
reflects
things
that
have
right?
upload
log
does
not
indicate
:
right?
Let me back up on
that a
little.
So
it
says
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWW.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
that you can...
(Witness
A.
So
reflects
I
think it makes
things
sense
that happened in
it might include
happen.
reviewing)
things
that,
the past.
you know,
As good as happened,
the entire
that the upload log
But I
think
are about to
but maybe haven't —- maybe
thing hasn't happened yet.
I'm not
sure,
you
know,
when you write
the upload log compared to when you do the thing the
upload log
Q.
the
CS
A.
reports.
Is
the
upload
the
same
as
or
different
It
I
is
different.
you
on page
101
o:
am.
On page
There
MR.
101
is
is
there
an
upload
log?
--
DICHIARA:
Objection,
form
--
RHOA:
Upload
log?
There is an example of upload log,
You
,
202-220-415 8
as
list?
Are
BY MR.
log
see
the
paragraph
right
under
yes.
that?
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
www.henderson1ega1serVices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
Yes.
You
see where
it mentions
option
S?
Yes.
Q.
Do
you
A.
No.
know what
We
looking for what
find it before,
document.
I
Can
A.
If
before.
I
Q.
talked about
although
you
I
means?
that before.
that might mean.
looked in
Q.
that
tell,
--
if
I
I
didn't
But no,
look
the vicinity of
looking
could,
I
at
in
I
I
was
couldn't
the entire
this page.
page
101,
would have
what
said
so
didn't
--
the
S
cannot.
So
you
saw
it
before,
you
just
You pointed this
out before.
You
says
see
where
it
"option
8
saves
rejected
Yes.
MR.
BY
MR.
You
there,
there,
And
then
it
continues.
RHOA:
Q.
S
DICHIARA:
the
it's
don't
file
is
deleted
think
this
saved,
or
and
means
if
that
there's
if
there's
not
an
an
S
sequestered?
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
47
A.
I do not understand this
rejected now seems
This
——
this
Q.
things
——
that were
MR.
think
it might
think
excluded and perhaps
Q.
So
excluded
are
A.
point
is
S
——
other
if
So that goes
referring
to
you?
form,
~-
scope.
things,
that
there's
an
to your
things
things
S
which has
that were
but I'm not
that
sure.
are
present?
—— actually,
that paragraph out before.
then
--
--
it possible
saved
is
it might include
paragraph on page 103,
not
do
Objection
DICHIARA:
I
rejected
excluded,
think
——
don't
I‘m not sure what rejected is.
DICHIARA:
MR.
A.
I
--
You don't
I
fully.
you didn't
You pointed out the
the same language,
"if
zipfile deleted."
So
I‘m just not sure what -— what's being
talked about here without knowing more about what option
S
is.
Q.
deleted
A.
E-,v,~, ~,;m~_—:g~,—»«,W, ,;_,;W,~ M,
.r_,
Is
if
it
possible
there's
an
So again
--
~*,’.\3s’*g‘aA.11.2‘~:3‘5v§&s:eas.'-“'n5«flvL412L§>‘3«*3“..~VI«§x\’V
that
an
S marking
excluded
file
is
not
there?
*".»‘\za.. mn’
~.y:.nm.smnz«a-;s'««:*me«.,.'»‘r~ ‘ *M:.i:e:.ImsAu'
“
2
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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www.henders0n1ega1services.c0m
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
MR.
A.
——
October 24, 2013
DICHIARA:
I
Objection,
form and
don't know the purpose of
further wouldn't know
the purpose
of
scope.
S.
S with
And
I
an excluded
file.
Q.
You
don't
think
MR.
DICHIARA:
S
means
save?
Objection,
misstates,
form
and
scope.
A.
that
S
that's
is
——
what
save
starts
that means.
about what that option
MR.
"scope,"
redirect.
So
is
BY
MR.
what
of
Do
‘O96
..{.,..\,..,
you
A.
Yes.
Q.
Can
that
W .,_e.,
don't know
know more
the
for
the
record,
outside
the
scope
using the
scope
of
short
his
when
of his
form
for the
reply declaration
have
said.
have
your
reply declaration
in
front
you turn
of
regarding
you?
to paragraphs
12
and
13,
please,
declaration?
1., ;,l%;d\
Yes.
,, .._ H,’ .,,r .
,..h\.,,.,\.c _. , xi .
V
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
I
would need to
just
it's
I'm just
should
patent
A.
E»/er
I
but
RHOA:
Q.
the
And
I‘m saying
Outside
I
S,
S.
DICHZARA:
record.
with
‘._, . \ ,,mz;._r
. j_.§.,,,
[“\
.,:§
,
WWW.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
49
Q.
Can
you
review paragraph
12
reply declaration
and tell me when
you're
(Witness
So
are
you
A.
In
the
context of this document,
data because
it's
the data
is
—- with
ones
zeros,
and
is
about
A.
What do you mean by
MR.
A.
metadata
data
at
;'m asking
whether metadata
So
is
the
data
segment,
path or anything
some
or
-—
is,
the
could call
is
data.
W.s\Awem-«V»M<=x%/_~arin,g:
item and not
like
not?
‘cause everything
level?
do you have
or
an
opinion
about
not?
Objection,
this
scope
the content of a
not the
——
its
and
form.
discussion,
name
file
I'm
or
--
or
or owner or
that.
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
I'm saying
you
what
data
"data"
context of
treating data as meaning
a block or a
data
you,
3:CHIARA:
in
not
item.
So
Q.
is
respect to a
is
Q.
the world is
that metadata
metadata
Metadata
part of
here
data that's
item,
this
reviewing)
Q.
saying
of
done?
Okay.
particular data
in
13
A.
that metadata is
it,
and
,
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
In
Q.
reply
that context metadata
Did you
apply that
context
is
not data.
in all
0:
your
declarations?
A.
Yes.
MR.
kind
o:
fairly
BY MR.
DICHIARA:
question,
answer
Objection,
you have
that
to
form.
give
And
for
that
him
some
time
learn
that
you
to
question.
RHOA:
Q.
So
would
it
called metadata data
surprise you
in another
to
one
of your
reply
declarations?
MR.
DICHIARA:
A.
Very much.
Q.
Let's
for the
'544
take
patent.
A.
M—hmm.
Q.
Please
declaration
a
look
Do
Yes,
go
Vague,
you have
I
the
it
Q.
In
state
that
the
last
two
"extended
A
2:2»-s»
reply
it
in
declaration
front
of you?
do.
'544
(Witness
Okay.
your
to paragraph
regarding
A.
at
scope.
13
your
reply
patent.
doing
lines
of
of
attribute
as
requested)
paragraph
data
is
13,
doesn't
metadata"?
'- av ‘v
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Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
Yes.
So
aren't
you
saying
ZARA:
there
Objection,
that
metadata
misstates,
is
scope
--
So
MR.
A.
—-
context as
this
the
declaration.
data,
DICHIARA:
is
one
—-
and
this
is
But still here,
form.
not exactly the
that we were
in
on
the
thing,
and ——
about the
about
Q.
A.
as
in
the
Let me back up.
content of
the
which is
and the extended attribute thing data
is metadata.
So
again,
MR.
and
‘O96
and extended attribute data,
thing,
it,
data,
same
I'm distinguishing normal
the content one devoted —— sorry.
Normal
is
——
is
metadata
DICHIARA:
data
Objection,
or
not?
form,
scope,
asked
answered.
In the context of both of these declarations,
I've got in the
‘O96 declaration,
data versus metadata.
data versus
In here,
extended attribute
And in
the
I'm talking about just
I'm talking about normal
data.
first context metadata
isn't
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Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
52
the data
metadata,
data
that's
that is
the contents
Q.
metadata
MR.
of a
extended attribute
Is
MR.
BY
the contents
data,
is
And here,
the
not the normal
identifiers.
data
DICHIARA:
file.
or
not?
Same
objections.
Same
objection.
RHOA:
Q.
A.
Yes
or
no?
MR.
DICHIARA:
So without --
without context,
it's
not a
yes—or—no question.
Q.
data,
You
have
no
opinion
on
whether metadata
is
right?
MR.
DICHIARA:
mischaracterizes
A.
I
haven't
declarations,
Q.
So
the
-—
actually,
U
In
the
MR.
CH ARA:
—-
in
DICHIARA:
in
the
to
:
testimony.
in
the
context of
metadata
your position
MR.
——
Objection
is
is
that
Objection
the
—~
context
and
context of
all
of
these
not data.
metadata
is
misstates,
of
these
not
form
data,
--
--
scope.
this matter,
metadata
is
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Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
53
not data.
And,
in fact,
you had some data and
the metadata part of
Now,
that it's made of
made
of
zeros
in
general,
in
some metadata,
the
field,
you wouldn't call
the data.
you
can
say
it's
zeros
and ones,
and ones.
And lots
data
in
but lots
of
the
Would
one
consider metadata
MR.
scope,
A.
if
one
asked
skill
freshman or
zeros
be
and
things
art
outside
the
the
context.
If
art were
speaking kind of
zeros
and ones
in
--
the world and talking
you know,
all
data
is made
zeros
of
and ones,
a kind of data.
the
context in
the matter before
not data.
Do
you
think
unreasonable
for
someone
MR.
guess.
answered.
But in
Q.
form,
And metadata is made of
metadata is
the
I
not?
Objection
something,
and ones.
or
in
are
could be
the
so maybe metadata is
us,
data
skill
it would depend on
in
abstractly about
to
to
ordinary
DICHIARA:
Again,
of
of
sense
of things
called data under that rubric in that context,
Q.
if
DICHIARA:
it
would be
to
say
reasonable
that
Objection,
metadata
form and
or
is
data?
outside
the
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Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
scope.
A.
In
the
context of
this
matter,
it would be
unreasonable.
Q.
How about
MR.
in
the
DICHIARA:
answered,
form,
ordinary practice
Same
outside
objections,
the
scope
of
of
asked
the
this
and
reply
declaration.
A.
person
of
It would be pretty much
unreasonable.
-— practitioner
art would think
metadata was
data.
about
That's,
doesn't mean
Q.
for
its
about,
You
someone
by
the
think
in
M1.
outside
this
D
the
of
data,
not
name,
I
this
meta
A
that
constituent of
the
about
it
—-
well,
guess.
it would be
art
CH ARA:
scope,
to
unreasonable
generally
say that metadata
Misstating
and
form,
the
and
is
data?
testimony,
asked
and
answered.
A.
In any particular context
in which
there
data and metadata where the meta part applies
first data,
it would be unreasonable
MR.
RHOA:
Z
would
' ‘ ~':42.m?;us.~«*.' s*us".s4.~-»‘k. m'xe;;. ‘~='~My"f2kf2ufi”M.a='.«~.. .m.~'—*~.-* ;a_m.z~">a/;a:g;m.i=;. '~<ssme:.sa:. 4"N,/;v;;‘g'-gwg~=mg;’3;‘
,
202-220-415 8
like
to
to
call
to the
that data.
introduce
~‘
is
——
let's
*
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
55
call
this Exhibit
Exhibit
to this deposition,
Clark Reply
1.
(Exhibit
BY MR.
1
1
marked
for
identification)
RHOA:
Q.
Do
A.
I
Q.
This
metadata.
you
have
Exhibit
1
in
front
of
you?
do.
Do
is
a
you
MR.
Merriam—Webster
see
definition
of
that?
DICHIARA:
Objection,
form,
outside
the
scope.
(Witness
A.
So
I
reviewing)
don't know the providence
document and I don't know if this
is
entirety of
see
the definition,
apparently Merriam—Webster
Q.
And
what
Merriam—Webster
A.
Data
20
Q.
Do
21
A.
Sure.
is
is
the
but
I
this
the only ——
that this
and offers
definition
of
one
the
is
definition.
that
giving to metadata?
that provides
information
about
other
M,«’.»~
19
22
you
agree with that
This is exactly the context I was
speaking of before.
-’.xm.;.§:A;c;mas."«'-,-iamumm'~<i~'a.—/.-——*—'«.i. '»>’\.man7.»
definition?
-‘
If you have —— if you have data
1W3‘-.¢’s~s£:;‘-s”a.”-cs3r'p.; .4>uw1..;<*-....,~’>.sa;.2aae.-"»a':;.w-1»an5«.2:.=’m.,N-'4,-..,w»;:;smsa;¢.:sma:.w"-aim-2»s-;; a'«;—;A~=zk>4.~@251’
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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WWW.h€I’1C16I'SOI11€ga1S€1‘V1C€S.COH1
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
metadata
that is
provides
information about the
that's
of
consistent.
art
as
that
So
of
you
1995
provides
A.
was
agree
would
Yes,
have
that's
first data.
is
data
in
one
of
ordinary
This
the
is
——
sense
skill
considered metadata
about
fair.
other
That's
to
in
be
the
data
data?
consistent with what
saying.
RHOA:
(Exhibit
MR.
2
Let's
marked
Q.
Do
A.
Yes.
Q.
This
you
Do
have
is
a
this
C;ark
Reply
2.
identi* ‘cation)
you
see
you
ever
in
o:
front
of
metadata
you?
from
:4~-»,.rva9m_;‘s«N7'—“>
that?
Q.
Have
A.
I
Q.
Here metadata
see
2
definition
I
A.
for
Exhibit
A.
you
mark
RHOA:
Webopedia.
Do
the metadata
this
that
information
WR.
BY
I mean
that
--
Q.
I
about that data,
do.
think
so,
heard
of
but maybe
is
Webopedia
be:
not.
defined
as
data
about
data.
that?
That is
the
first
sentence.
It continues,
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Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
57
"metadata describes how and why and by whom a particular
set of data was
formatted,"
collected and how the data
which
I
think that's
—— needs
is
some work,
but...
Q.
here
Do
you
agree
with
the
definition
that's
given
for metadata?
(Witness
A.
that's
I
don't
—~
I
conveyed here.
about metadata.
reviewing)
agree with
I
the
general
think that is
notion
too particular
Metadata is a more general concept to
me.
This definition
whom a particular
data
is
formatted.
data was
And those
of metadata,
but that's not
For example,
metadata of
And that's
Q.
that
not listed in
So
you're more
metadata means
other
_
set of
data
says how and when and by
a
collected and how
things
the
could be elements
entirety of metadata.
file would include
this
its
name.
list of particulars.
comfortable
that
the
with
provides
the
definition
information
about
data?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Is
_,.,,fl:;i~,,,.r
the
1,5,-.—.—. —~.~«’.,.r,_,
word
"metadata"
,,,,«,a.mmW£,.r.,~,.,, .§-Q‘
used
in
\,~r-3}-r,3,~:~,»,. , ,,S,.,,-\~ ; <77,»
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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Kantor?
,
WWW.henders0n1ega1serVices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
MR.
BY
MR.
and
DICHZARA:
Objection.
RHOA:
Q.
you
October 24, 2013
aware
To
your
of
the
MR.
D
A.
I
Q.
In
knowledge,
word
as
you
"metadata"
CH ARA:
sit
being
Outside
the
here
used
scope
today,
in
and
are
Kantor?
the
form.
do not know.
Kantor
comments,
a
Zip
file
includes
names,
dates,
right?
MR.
DICHZARA:
Objection,
outside
the
scope
form.
A.
file
In Kantor,
includes
Q.
5
In
the
names,
Kantor
metadata
Q.
reply
for
Yes,
as
--
is part of
Shift
'662
are
and such,
the
names,
a Zip
yes.
dates
and
comments
E
DICHIARA:
as
the
back to
declarations.
the
dates
generally,
Z1'p':1'_e?
MR.
A.
and in the world,
patent,
Can
Objection,
in
the
Zip
the world,
the
another
grab
your
one
reply
of
1
your
declaration
please?
(Witness
I have
rest of
file.
your ——
you
1
form.
doing
as
requested)
it.
.
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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,
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
Please
MR.
:urn
to
D"C%”ARA:
page
9.
Just
one
(Witness
the
A.
I
Q.
Let me
‘662
both
the
to
Q.
Here
the
'662
ask
is
Yes.
Q.
On
in
page
say
True
LDE,
Do
Q.
I
would
IPR
and
the
you
have
the
front
'662
patent
2013-00086.
of
reply
you,
a
copy
of
your
reply
the
'662
patent
from the
Do
now
declaration
declaration
"obtains
local
you
So
which
is
you
have
regarding
right?
of
see
a
at
lines
copy
4
of
directory
that?
that.
like
to
ask
describes,
in
your
file's
extensions
of
table."
see
patent
in
Name
I
A.
:
copy
9
that
A.
the
you
patent
A.
you
a
1001
patent
extensions,
of
requested)
not.
Exhibit
file's
'662
do
'662
5,
as
patent?
I
the
doing
am there.
A.
marked
moment.
True
Name
you
to
show me
opinion,
from the
local
where
obtaining
the
a
copy
directory
table.?
Okay.
We're
referring to
the
local
directory
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C1ar1<, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
60
extensions
table and Figures
extensions
table has
Name
in it.
what's
the
And that,
happening here
—— you want
True Name
from
to
cited passage
a
So
the process
so
as you
local
file
Q.
So
A.
column
Q.
Name,
the
U
the True
us-understand that
you
things,
is
get
file's
the
.,«5=~/uwIr;:vsy¢-gm1<&@»a_A
that
let me back up.
to
line
——
no,
for
the pathname,
From the exact
a
I
given pathname,
and then you go
table
and get a
and that leads
you
word
citing
——
lines
ARA:
you're
51
I
through
think
cited this.
to
58,
that
the
to
to
true
True
the
file.
'662
right?
misstates
the
numbers.
the
from
In
21
CH
line
helps
deleting a file
Name
column
So
——
fact,
of
things,
among other
few lines
is
MR.
given
is,
directory extensions
a True
in
think,
The directory
table.
start with
—-
patent
I
among other
delete a file,
that
In
the
the,
27A and B.
citation
column
column
21,
21,
in the declaration goes
line 51,
line
59,
is:
Is
it
to
column
already
22,
has
to
line
a
6.
True
right?
A.
So my
question
'- » ‘
obtaining
‘>s.‘sCa».\"5é;R\3La*;:n,%sW:¥utZ:>$£it£r.}4z5é;?:§&€s.?z#i13.i&t\§ik%&,i;#.’.~*g.“b‘ ‘Zwi«“.‘ a;¢;2-:v,'*.:.A»/‘WAG’
4\
the
True
Name
ws.-w;4m »é1£ué.s'.*.e‘si»'a‘Z};“xa‘uie;m.‘.A'4‘x.e’32s‘2;'g:.m"
'
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWW.henders0n1ega1serVices.c0m
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
61
in
column
that
21,
you're
saying
from
DICHIARA:
Objection,
(Witness
think
that's
reviewing)
And
A.
Walks up to the local directory extensions
how
does
look up
can
extensions
table
the next field,
Q.
Why
declaration
A.
Let's
would be
into
Q.
a
-—
some
there is
you
this
psw
~
True
from the
this
local
word
(Witness
reviewing)
Copy obtains
-—
the
I
True Name,
in
your
4?
suppose
but
I
thing and make
portion
of
'662
in your
patent
could
there would
ordinary computer processing,
or whatnot,
in
Off you go.
line
——
the
directory
"copy"
9,
organized
And then
the True Name.
the
is
And finds
page
a
Name?
that
respect,
variable,
of
a
that pathname.
using
see.
in
3
you would find that
Does
copy
obtain
And presumably
Figure
said it obtains
-- you know,
it
that has
are
in
right.
stuff by pathname.
record depicted in
i
is
misstates.
Q.
so you
make
58;
I
a pathname.
it
through
A.
table with
be
51
right?
MR.
have
lines
it
a copy of
software.
say
that
you
it?
ww
«L ‘~
" =
.
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
62
A.
I
ordinary
an
do
skill
in
see
the
ordinary process
Q.
Is
A.
No.
MR.
The
21,
and
saving
ARA:
'662
patent
A.
I
that's
DICHMALA:
the
for
on
the
describes
here,
Q.
Audit
is
same
thing
scope
the
Objection
that
actual
the
that's
and
or
not?
:
21
segment of
is
incomplete.
deletion process
through
the
There‘s
see
file
deleted
in
reviewing)
line
——
of
I
6
the
on
some
column
other
22,
it
I
-—
would want
well,
would like
in
line
22
to use
because
specification
the deletion process which
You
file
form.
deletion process,
column
rid of a file.
the
of
66?
would say
what
actually
51
the
Objection,
(Witness
line
but a person
art would understand that
D
line
MR.
to use
"copy,"
RHOA:
Q.
column
the word
of programming.
copying
MR.
BY
not
is
not
things
says
that
just getting
that happen.
"add
entry
to
132"?
A.
Q.
,
202-220-415 8
Is
that
entry
added
to
the
Audit
file
a:
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
WWW.hendersonlegalserviees.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
63
the
file
has
A.
been
deleted
or
A person of skill
in my opinion,
before
it's
been
deleted?
looking at that would say,
that it doesn't matter whether
before or after.
These are
two
things
that's
that happen and
it could work either way.
Q.
Well,
I'm not
asking
I'm just
if
it
Can
the
entry
the
file
to
is
the
asking what
the patent
says.
matters.
you
tell
if
the
Audit
file
132
is
patent
done
is
saying
before
or
that
after
deleted?
MR.
3
CH ARA:
Objection,
question.
A.
Reading this
reading it for what it
coma,
sentence
says,
and add an entry to
order.
But a person of
in isolation and just
it offers
deletion,
and
the Audit file suggesting an
skill
reading this would
understand that there is no particular order specified
and that either
Q.
So
A.
Okay.
Q.
You
A.
I
V.» 7. ».,r..m\,«,r
.~.~,~.«~,¢
,
202-220-415 8
order would work.
take
see
see
a
look
step
at
430
.'~,-
273.
says
"delete
True
file"?
that.
AV‘,/F .4/. 4. .\ ,N_,,— :;;5‘*-,«,,m_,.. ,~ —._,\»,. ~. —.,...;.. .,_,m.—‘ .,,~, i.;,.,,,.._,;,,,, 9 1%., yo , ,—_,.k,,.\.,,,-at — ;m,%»>.;.,. .
, ,\.,.,_,‘_, , ~,_
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
WWW.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
64
that
or
Q.
And then
says
"add
A.
Yes.
Q.
So
after
the
A.
So
there's
entry
I'll
I
added
step
428
file"?
again:
is
will
arrow going to
to Audit
ask
entry
an
Is
to
say again,
the
the
I
file
Audit
guess,
deleted be:
file?
that while
this
float chart depicts deletion before adding entry to the
Audit file,
this
The
a person of skill would see other ways
including reversing
order
Q.
before
is
Figure
273
Yes.
Q.
In
Kantor
How
keep
does
show
the entry was made
going
still
work.
not important.
A.
We’re
that order will
to do
to
--
shift
you
withdraw
doing,
file
was
file,
deleted
right?
that.
Dr.
Clark,
okay?
--
A.
I'd rather be on
Q.
We're
going
True
to the Audit
I‘ll
are
the
to
the beach,
shift
topics
but I'm okay.
here.
You want
to
going?
A.
Keep going.
CH ARA:
short
break even
if
Can
I make
it's
just
a
a
request
couple
‘ “
for
a Very
of minutes.
>2’-2.;gnu
Henderson,Lega1 Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWW.henders0n1ega1serVices.Com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
MR.
RHOA:
Yeah.
THE
W"TN?SS:
MR.
DICHIARA:
Like
MR.
Do
Dr.
you
have
the
turn
to
A.
Yes.
Q.
Please
A.
I'm
Q.
On
page
for a
Yes.
Q.
In
signature
A.
55,
Zip
page
of the
Kantor
file
Kantor's
calling metadata
Zip
y
in
:
in
as
Zip
signature of the
Zip
calling metadata
in the
»..~'.a-;na=:r.x.~xm:..s.am(~'*>"
the
Kantor's
contents
y procedure,
the
file,
contents
-- pretends
——
the
the
file,
Zip file
but treats
contents.
the
contents
is based on what
Zip
you were
its metadata,
as
right?
right?
y procedure,
file
a
is based on what
and ignores
internals
So
describes
procedure,
The y format makes
its
55.
using the
file
in the
just the file
Q.
reference
there.
A.
of
Kantor
Clark?
signature
all
Recess)
RHOA:
Q.
were
now?
Yes.
(Short
BY
right
you are
correct?
.a‘.z.s~:A)11~&.<L\.+i.£.ai2:. §;4: :.§>iAa;:»iuza=aAbi.:u. fi
I o.»4.:;L—;u;c2¢:a; u2;:;mxe1mz;r. mmazz;ssa'gr.«;. .x>=7»:.“‘«.*1;';.~.v.«'.«w;:;.:L."o~\.-\.:.-‘*
Henderson Lega1 Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWW.henderson1ega1serVices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
A.
I
October 24, 2013
think
that's basically correct.
just like to clarify that the Zip file -—
file has metadata about its own
is metadata about the
its pathname,
I would
so the Zip
inner files,
but there
Zip file itself like its name,
and the last time it was changed,
and
and so
on.
So
made under
Q.
that is
the y,
Can
you
give me
is
in the
Easiest would be
Q.
Dates?
A.
Last written date.
file
the name
of
A.
Yeah,
Q.
So
I
in
in Kantor?
the
inner
file.
E
there.
§
think comments
names,
dates,
o: metadata that
and
is
one
comments
is part
of
of
the entries.
E
would be
the
Zip
file
in
right?
MR.
,ICHZARA:
In
fact,
So
in
mmlmcmmrmm‘
Objection,
part of any Zip
Kantor's
*.4.a:;..»m~-m‘*.}L%‘.9.mJ. uxm"“"’fia7:‘‘m‘~
form.
file.
y procedure,
Kantor's
content
«a.:e;»;2zm,“m<‘us.-‘Mf2n3'L"«~;s‘.£?14/.sl‘.r13‘»k§.'<‘.*. ‘$.~&Zzar
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
you're
There's a Zip file format
exactly what's
Comments?
Kantor,
of what
1
Q.
examples
Zip
signature
is.
some examples
A.
specifies
the contents
but everything else
calling metadata that
that
not in
,
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
signature
is
October 24, 2013
based on this metadata
o:
the
Zip
file,
right?
MR.
A.
So
DICHIARA:
that's
Objection,
form.
correct because
the y
——
the y
procedure is pretending that the Zip file is not a Zip
file.
So
It's
it
——
content
it
So
the
file's
zips
it up.
Sorry.
So
It
that's
——
all
it makes
content.
a
signature.
Q.
that
just a regular file.
in the
names,
y procedure
dates,
isn't
and comments
Kantor
indicating
are part
of the
Zip
outside
the
content?
MR.
D
ARA:
Objection
to
form,
scope.
A.
So
the
Zip file's
content does
the metadata of the inner files.
the Zip file.
Q.
Can
That‘s
you
what a
turn
to
(Witness
A.
I
Q.
You
"y—list
file,"
L:m.as/'w.m‘
--
is.
113
of
Kantor?
doing
as
requested)
am there.
see
contents
et
the
That's the meaning of
Zip file
page
include
cetera?
at
the
bottom of
signatures
You
see
for
af
113,
files
it
says
in a
Zip
that?
*' <""i"tmIx}{£.35,}S«7uA:mi§.id»1I):Rm&£’¢x2L«.a‘V‘.1<“n3'mfi.::‘..z.w.¢:'
m.’-z.§
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
wwwhendersonlegalservicescom
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
A.
Yes.
Q.
Is
contents
October 24, 2013
that
talking
signatures
MR.
the
3
or
is
CH ARA:
scope,
about
it
you
I
Q.
In
see
Yes.
Q.
In
outside
of
reviewing)
question.
procedure
Sorry.
here,
this
y—list
procedure,
that
y—list
contents
procedure,
signatures
is
Kantor
just
or
is
Kantor accessing
DICHIARA:
Objection
to
form,
outside
of
scope.
A.
So
it needs
file
file?
file?
the
to
the
this
MR.
need
Zip
form.
lost
A.
Zip
vague,
the
that?
listing the
the
listing
accessing the
Objection,
(Witness
A.
just
I
don't know,
but
I
don't
see a reason
to access the Zip file to do this.
research more
Q.
Does
here
in
this
these
MR.
thoroughly
say
two
DICHIARA:
anything
lines
that
in
about
I would
document.
accessing‘
we're
Objection,
(Witness
the
that
looking
a‘.
scope.
reviewing)
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWW.henderson1ega1serVices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
69
A.
in
It does not
these
page
two
lines.
Q.
When
Kantor
ll3,
does
Kantor obtain the
from the
CS
A.
sense
list
So
I
in
some
y—list
procedure
contents
place
Q.
Are
in
your
includes
DICHIARA:
It does.
on
signatures
else?
list makes
the most
the
CRC
values
Q.
So
on page
where
ZCS
A.
Yes.
Q.
is
the
Zip
the
it,
right?
in
a
Zip
file
metadata
or
he
55
of
talks
for
Zip
ZCS
in
They're
about
Kantor,
Kantor
about
Zip
file,
a
the
data.
describes
file
the
contents
right?
Kantor based
on
the
CRC
values
file?
A.
Yes,
Q.
So
Zip
in
opinion?
They are metadata.
or
CRC values
Objection.
A.
procedure
a
file
A.
signature
in
from
the
don't know but the CS
A Zip
MR.
z
or
performs
to me.
Q.
not,
say anything about it right here
and on
then
the
their
ZCS
in
lengths
Kantor
also.
is
based
on metadata
file?
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
70
MR.
DZCHIARA:
Objection
to
form,
outside
the
scope.
zero
A.
ZCS,
Q.
Do
in
some
interesting.
you
of
A.
Yes.
Q.
Does
A.
I
recall
your
method zero explicitly,
Q.
here
includes
Are
today,
you
compression method
declarations?
ever mention
do not know
format which
mentioning
reply
Kantor
Yes.
compression method
if he calls
out compression
but he does mention the
Zip file
compression method zero.
aware
in Kantor,
of
any
that
statement,
refers
to
as
you
sit
compression method
zero?
MR.
and
A.
-~
that’s
it.
I
do not
recall
method zero.
since
of
ZIP
DICHIARA:
But
files
have
Q.
the
form of the
question
a mention of compression
since he does
implicit in Kantor
part of
Objection,
talk
about ZIP
compression method
zero,
that compression method
files
it is
zero
and
kind
is
story.
Does
Kantor
ever
describe
a
compression
ratio
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
71
:
one
to
one:
MR.
Yes
or
no
DZCHIARA:
answer?
Objection
to
form,
outside
the
scope.
A.
So
I
MR.
would -DZCHIARA:
question,
on
that
sort
to
A.
as
of
be
I'm just
well
asking
fair,
So
I
correctly,
I
document.
And
he
also
for
that
kind
him about
the
should be
able
~-
would have
that
kind
of
going to preserve my objec
for
assume
I
And
so
I
o:
question.
whole
to
document.
review
don't know.
to look through
think both of us
It's
And
it.
But
to
answer
the whole
would rather
I
not do
that.
Q.
statement
one
to
As
you
in
Kantor
one,
A.
sit here today,
referring
to
you're not
aware
compression
of any
ratio
of
right?
I
am not aware of any particular
although the
Zip file has
that possibility,
statement,
so
it's
implicit.
Q.
too,
ZIP
have
a
lot
of
other possibilities
right?
A.
\ 1,.
files
. -,-,.r, .-, —
,
202-220-4158
Yes.
_..—,, .
V _, A
‘<8
, ,.:_w_\,_.~ W. ,, r,.,,_,,,,...,,$—Q§«mr fl,"L)’/~N”-_':«: \Vr‘Ls!{"\$;%h“‘:( , ‘, ,w,.,—.r. ,_,—\-:,r.;,\A, Nr, _,r1>,., ,m,,..\ 5., _,A%.,
W1, .. (V-\) ’4‘—» ;. . -. V
(gs, .
2,.’
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
www.henderson1ega1serVices.corn
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
72
MR.
the
DICHIARA:
form,
vague,
outside
scope.
A.
Yes.
Q.
In
fact,
possibilities,
MR.
the
2”
‘files
have many,
many other
right?
DICHIARA:
scope,
Objection
misstates,
outside
form.
A.
It's
a
Q.
Does
Kantor describe
plurality
1'10
Objection,
famously
successful
a
of uncompressed inner
idea.
Zip
file with a
files
therein?
Yes
or
answer .
MR.
.ICHIARA:
Objection,
form,
outside
or
scope.
A.
that,
I
4
So the form of the question,
would need to
look.
But
again,
I'm not aware
to answer
of
that
possibility being explicitly mentioned by Kantor.
On
the other hand,
so
it's
——
I
it's a possibility with ZIP files,
regard it as implicit.
Q.
Does
A.
I
Kantor
ever describe
jpeg
can't answer without looking,
aware that he does.
But again,
images,
but I'm not
it would be —— people
<~ '» .a.:..,g
-~
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
wWw.hendersonlegalserviees.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
73
understood that's jpeg is
can be
a
file file
Q.
So
Kantor,
you
or
just another kind of file.
a component of a
think
jpeg
files
Zip
It
file.
would be
implicit
in
right?
A.
It
Q.
Kantor
A.
Yes.
Q.
Does
"icult
just talks
reads
Kantor
about
CRC
values
ever
or
problematic
MR.
DICHIARA:
files
say
to
without any
from
that
read
it
CRC
ZIP
limits,
files,
right?
would be
values
from
Z:
res?
before
A.
can
So
answer
answer
to
Q.
where
the
in
the
I
terms
of
Objection.
the
can't answer
scope
Same
of
the
objections
as
question.
the ever—say question,
am-I-aware-of—an-example question.
but
I
And the
that is no.
Does
PC
Kantor
creates
describe
a
Hip
‘file
a
PC
connected
while
it
is
to
a
BBS
connected
«r.,-m;5"~'zw/VM43v:fi‘’1_l7$”a%W<“§2}»se
to
BBS?
MR.
A.
certainty,
I
i”CH"ARA:
Objection
do not recall
I
would,
of
that,
course,
but
outside
to
need to
of
the
scope.
answer with
look
thoroughly.
é
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWW.henderson1ega1serVices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
74
Q.
'539
Please refer to
your reply declaration for the
patent.
(Witness
A.
I
have
Q.
What,
item recited
in
requested)
it.
in
Kantor,
claim
34
do
of
you
the
contend
'539
to
be
Q.
I
do
not
have
a
copy or
look
at
next
we
break
CH ARA:
RHOA:
MR.
DICHIARA:
MR.
RHOA:
don't
have
D
it
I
copy.
on my
can
get
data
2
can
give
computer
you
you
an
screen.
copies
at
the
—~
MR.
MR.
MR.
3
paper
the
patent?
Could l have a copy of that patent?
MR.
Okay.
——
Just
to
go
or maybe
review
down
CH ARA:
Why
it
that
don't
sooner.
for
notes,
just
so
road.
you
review
it.
RHOA:
Dr.
Clark,
Do
you
I
do.
So
m...>z..r~.~:L2L».-3m‘«.¥m.x“
as
A.
electronic
BY
doing
yaw‘;>se.»‘,. .»~.a. . .‘wAm=»..u'merm»<
have
please
I'm
it
handing
in
refer
front
to
you
a
copy
of
the
'539
of?
claim
34
v«m,.~"-WA‘ ~;/«'v'~'. m:;-_g;¢s'«:z.m~.;w
of
the
'539
\‘*'n:‘. {A‘§‘>4§¥“%:»‘$.§é‘i9,§i 42?¢aZ<i\-hnéa”\V‘néa{6.:«Sm’K7A“.nEin'u§.-x4.~.a4.L“\‘
e’ =~..*<ag.1;v>,a.n-~‘vm%
Henderson Legal Services, Inc,
202-220-415 8
.
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
75
A.
Okay.
Q.
Now,
contend
And
I
there
data
the
question
to
be
the
note
in
claim
is
second data
a
data
is:
What,
item that
34,
there
item.
is
is
Kantor,
recited
data
And
in
item,
in
and
do
you
claim
34?
then
I'm talking about
the
item.
A.
The
first one.
Okay.
Yes,
understood.
(Witness
MR.
the
RHOA:
While
THE
MR.
you're
WITNESS:
Okay.
A.
So
Record
that,
off
I
am
Discussion)
ready.
the particular data item in
column 45 of the
file made up of
Q.
5
Now,
claim
'539 patent is
the
what
contents
do
you
of
line
5
of
the portion of the Zip
the various
contend
to
be
the
inner
files.
second
data
34?
(Witness
‘ /.aas.u;r.wum‘I
202-220-415 8
at
RHOA:
Q.
.
looking
record.
(Off
BY
reviewing)
reviewing)
n5L¢.u:£r.’a’ssiv}2‘.h\1‘91.-:i£fir§;>A7h>$:.;€.§i ;m5ll$o&£r3L;5£.fi£; »»&.xvd§.Qi£1.uGAn1A24om*r飻w}:‘rké.uI.:.£:»€am‘‘mmmzm2.mm.va.mm~~'m..,.'~m;as2.wmail’-An‘~v:mu,xm&aam.~.;mm2s.e'
' J’~
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
,
www.henderson1egalservices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
76
A.
So I'll go to my declaration on that.
on page 23,
the
line
last three
-—
sorry.
lines,
Page 23,
"In fact,
paragraph 37.
there are
the
inner
files
of
the
Zip file
to
And
a number of
instances where Kantor discloses the contents
of
And I'm
form a
signatures
second data
item."
And then
in paragraph
the general format of a contents
the master contents
38,
one example
is
signature list such as
signature list,
CS
list.SRT,
all
caps.
Q.
So
is
declaration,
A.
what
No.
contents
entire
you're
of
—-
a particular
CS
list
on page
calling the
It would be
signatures
respect to
example,
that
the
so
ZIP
24
second data
concatenation
the
of your
second data
file would be
in
the concatenation of the contents
of
item?
the
item with
this
signatures
of
the inner files who had that ZIP file as a parent.
Q.
Where
A.
So
column
is
——
I
would
the
guess
that
contents
he
be?
signatures
calls
this
column
—— this is not a concrete example,
But the thing where it says
are
1.
there
in
And this
unfortunately.
32 bits CRC-32 bit length is
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
the
content
October 24, 2013
signature
So
that first
of
a not
let's
thing is
go
to
ZIP
line
the contents
file called filename.extension.
that
it is
an
inner
zipfile.extension.
second
——
sorry.
MR.
A.
—-
of
the
data
Q.
Where
A.
So
the CS
each
Data
file's
are
they
of
--
random
And it is
declaring
called
item would be
the
item.
the
of
name
concatenation
the
of
--
concatenation
of
filenames
in
column
that had
5.
concatenated?
concatenated in,
all
there's
of a
file would be
The
So
signature
second
signatures
those.
name.
--
ZIP
list with
signatures
Q.
ZIP
3.
a file
item would be
contents
of
the
DICHIARA:
that particular
sequence
So
of
Second
for a particular
all
file
file
I
could
say,
second data item is
those
16
character
I
guess
a
the
subset
of
content
strung not.
Does
Kantor
ever
disclose
them being
next
to
other?
A.
They are
So
then
not disclosed as being next
in
claim
34,
it
calls
for
*A.’«im;4Aa>I' J"
a
to
True
each
Name
',.‘:u‘§.:a.«:w".‘*. ‘<§‘:§234»_sW~.. . e. ’““z‘zn«/mi.‘ = "”":}'.\:?r$2;\‘2iH;:(.'fl4a’Jfl€AX"
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
www.henderson1ega1serVices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
of
said
the
October 24, 2013
second data
A.
Yes.
Q.
What
second
are
data
item.
you
Do
contending
So
see
is
the
I'm thinking
that because
combination of Kantor with Langer,
us
that
second one.
the
in
original
True
Name
of
reviewing)
is
exposition
that?
item?
(Witness
A.
you
But alas,
this declaration
declaration
to
see
I
this
is
a
——
that
that Langer gives
do not
see
that
and would need to
look
that
that's
what
now,
can you point
at
I
meant.
Q.
As
anything
of
said
‘S39
in
you
sit
here
Kantor which
second data
right
you
item as
allege
to be
the
to
True Name
required by claim 34
of
the
patent?
MR.
of
the
A.
reply
Objection,
to
outside
of the
scope
declaration.
I would be happier if
declaration
copy
DICHIARA:
I
could see
the original
this patent.
MR.
RHOA:
and
want
2
to
don‘t
show
ZCHIARA:
:1‘mm
have
him,
Yes.
a
copy.
that's
We
If
you
have
a
fine.
would
‘:<':;‘m“r;v.-:¢a.4s$:'v2u..'v~..’<,:2.w;rm/..::>.z~‘L'v.;e.¢"xi(:&.sm.._u'~
have
to
get
it
~:»..x-.»s.=..~~=.mew...»w;.m.aw‘A1»-Ag
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
over
BY
MR.
the
break
and
then
show
you sit
here
right
him over
the
break.
RHOA:
Q.
anything
of
October 24, 2013
said
So as
in Kantor which you allege
second data
MR.
the
item as
DlCflZARA:
noting Dr.
see
now,
original
question,
so
I
the
that
declaration
want
to
to
True Name
claim 34?
objection.
comment
don't
to be
required by
Same
Clark's
can you point
And
also
just
he would prefer
answer
to
that
any misimpression
on
that.
:f
Record
':ness
A.
minutes.
THE
WITNESS:
MR.
DICHZARA:
THE
WITNESS:
I
reviewing)
don't
You
Discussion)
need
the
declaration.
don't?
NO.
A little brain
fog
there
for
the
last few
So let me talk myself through claim 34,
if I
could.
So
sequence
of
the particular data
contents
the
segments.
the
claim are
of
And the
the
the
inner files
the
and those
are
segment identifiers mentioned in
contents
signatures
«:m~e;.-rammm‘->;.~=;a.<i. ‘ms-"»..%. M~’~
202-220-415 8
item is
of those
files.
3r:'n.V.4¢2‘.Lés.£s1’. "fm“zh§3:.>£z§.')A£m’ 37‘ W
x‘
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
wwwhendersonlegalserviees.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
80
Those appear,
the
as I‘ve said,
second data item.
And then
the
of
the data
ZIP
file contents
signature.
CRCs
combined with
the
I
what
I
request
to
claim
access
said
second
data
data
A.
Xes.
Q.
Okay.
found
A.
in
That‘s
32
of
for my brain
just
sum modulo
the
fog.
32
length.
That's
says,
data
"in
item,
response
said
to
a
request
item identifier providing
you
at
least
see
you
that?
explain
where
you
allege
that
Kantor?
at
it
least
objecting
still
DICHIARA:
outside
And
Joe,
that
route?
I'm
just
scope
of
preserve
just
on
the
en
that
so
I
going
his
to
object.
reply declaration
objection.
don't
stuff,
*
202-220-415 8
the
is
item."
Can
Is
MR.
,
those
There, I do think I need the other
declaration.
or
34
said
Do
be
It's
sum modulo
apologize
Clause
comprising
said
item for
say.
Q.
to
in the CS list constituting
if
have
there
to
is
keep
a
part
that
u’'
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
81
you think is
in
commenting on,
these
the
I
reply declaration,
won't
Actually,
got it here.
So
I
don't need the
disagree,
I explained above,
as
to modify
I
functionality
bottom
"I
it would have been
signature
In fact,
I've
continuing on page 27,
of
a BBS
to
(data item identifier)
and provide the CRC values
bits in response.
the
say,
read and download commands
take a zipfile contents
input,
declaration.
I address this in paragraph 41,
So where
as
record with all
reviewing)
of page 26.
obvious
your
he's
objections.
(Witness
A.
litter
where
in a sequence of
Kantor already implemented
to provide the
inner file
contents
signatures in response to Lookup request including a
zipfile contents
TEST
clause
that
'y form of the
function.'"
Q.
you
signature when using the
are
So
you're
F of the
alleging
saying,
'539,
that
as
claim 34,
it
would
I
understand
is
have
not
it,
that
in Kantor,
been
obvious;
but
is
right?
A.
No
--
MR.
DICHIARA:
Objection
to
:
Q.
—,, .
-, .
..,-M
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-4158
www.hendersonlegalservices.c0m
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
82
A.
So not quite because the functionality is
largely there.
It's
just,
it would be obvious
read and download command to do
clause
F of
to make a
the
claim
element.
Q.
Are
described
A.
in
you
saying
Kantor
or
that
clause
F of
claim
34
is
not?
I'm saying the functionality that one would
need is described in Kantor.
said data item,
it would be
Q.
would,
obvious
to
But the request to access
while not explicitly disclosed,
add.
Do you contend that Kantor discloses providing
the
second data
the
data
item in response to a request to access
item?
A.
So
--
MR.
D
ARA:
Same
objection
as
to
:
scope.
A.
So the modified read would do
that using the
functionality that is already present in Kantor,
provide
the
contents
Q.
to modify
list of
the
—- provide
would
the inner file
signatures.
And
you're
Kantor
to
saying
do
it
would
have
been
obvious
that?
i
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-4158
www.henderson1ega1serVices.c0m
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
Yes.
Okay.
MR.
Do you have Woodhill
3IC%ZARA:
Can
Z
in front
suggest
if we're
go into a different line of questioning,
be
BY MR.
Q.
good
a
good
time
for
lunch?
if
that's
of you?
going to
it might
RHOA:
Dr.
Clark,
your
desire,
that
sounds
to me.
A.
I'm always hungry.
(Off Record Discussion)
(Lunch Recess)
BY MR.
Q.
RHOA:
Are
We
we
ready?
are
ready.
You
understand
you’re
still
understood
oath?
Yes.
Do
you
have
a
copy
of
Woodhill
in
front
of
Yes.
Woodhill
has
a database
Time database 25,
I
25,
right?
see that in Figure 2.
.,
.
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
uh,
,y
,
WWW.henders0n1ega1serVices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
84
Q.
or
Is
not
in
database
25
stored
the
remote
server
12
Woodhill?
MR.
DiCHiARA:
Objection,
(Witness
A.
at
So
a reason
that
scope.
reviewing)
it is
not
stored at
the
remote because of the language describing Figure 3
illustrate
—— wait,
wait,
no.
Figure,
where —- what was
I?
Figure
bottom of
column 2
illustrates
in
the present invention
At the
"Figure 2
the
allocates
storage devices
the
illustrated
1."
And if
devices
sorry.
the manner in which the Distributed Storage
space on each of
Figure
So right,
describing Figure 2,
Manager program of
storage
2.
I
go
to Figure
shown are the two disks on
1,
the
storage
the local computers
20.
Q.
Figure
A.
12,
file
Server
12
is
not
a
storage
device,
right,
in
1?
It does not
but it would,
show a
of course,
storage device attached to
need storage device to be a
server.
m.z;a‘uxz¢.s'&i:.a.’~a&>L's:N4a‘.§1z*;'.u1<~°»~»Vz>?aL§>.>:.;'m‘dli:ar;£.uJ,L:£r,:S.:iu;*aE:;aZxsk£&riuu.xz
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
X5‘
/,:~s>.<«1&‘3
~‘»|‘i';:>‘:a‘x:: : .m:v.-asm«.u;21.»
.
,
wwwhendersonlegalservices.c0m
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
85
Q.
thought
So wou1d
one
of
ordinary
that backup server
12
was
skill
in
the
or was not
a
art
have
storage
device?
A.
One of ordinary
skill
thought that backup server 12
Q.
So
device,
what
database
25
if backup
is
is
MR.
A.
at
your
at
12
And why
A.
Just the reasoning I
So in
you contend
A.
outside
19.
just —-
Figure
is
a
1,
scope.
DICHIARA:
just gave you,
says where that thing is
can you
storage
I
server.
identify everything
device?
Objection
So it's a little tricky.
outside
the
scope.
~v‘-rA%«WmM§.:kE=&fiw,12l@;n
The local computer
speak,
so they have
But the user workstation certainly has a
storage device and the remote backup file
4* '
the
not?
has a disk about which one wish to
boxes
not
12?
and among them is not the backup file
MR.
or
server.
that the text about the figures
that
storage
I do not think that thing is
Q.
Q.
a
whether
server
Objection
the same.
art would have
includes
about
backup
DICHZARA:
It is
the backup
the
the
included a storage device.
server
answer
in
server
' axwRMV;1zvfiaLh;:mvJs;EuraA¢£>ssIaJrneieimklkumxrxcihfizléirxaxrirwnrs:kczm.;xLmI:xé4;=&.éy>%$s}A,.xa;m23E
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-41 5 8
www.henderson1ega1serVices.e0n1
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
certainly has
a
October 24, 2013
storage
Yeah,
Q.
through
So
62,
the
present
the
Q.
So
devices
:emote
backup
A.
says
Figure
at
now
the
understand
Figure
2
is
And the
So
it's
storage
MR.
remote
the
about
——
not
device,
3
2,
lines
the
space
Figure
manner
twice
backup
database
on
1,"
there
server
12.
is
the
each
of
right?
that
25
59
are
So
not
at
I'm
the
12?
that would mean
a
told me
why
server
in
I’m just reading the language
1.
Q.
storage
illustrated
you’ve
column
illustrates
the
That is what it says.
to
has
2
at
Storage Manager program of
allocates
devices
trying
that
patents
"Figure
Distributed
--
answer.
A.
storage
it
that
invention
storage
end of
Woodhill
says
in which the
device and
the
literally.
storage devices
interpreted literally,
the
And
in
I
would say
two disks.
implicit
that
the
backup
server
12
a5wme.fi«r»WM-s%K2,A
right?
CH ARA:
Objection,
misstates
his
testimony.
A.
Any person
of
understand that a backup
" ‘ ‘.s. :.s~
skill in
file
the art would
server doesn't make
** ’~‘ u;«w,. m«'‘*\*.sNLx“"“‘&A'<»i£r.k.".‘v:Jiz5i4s‘hisiula“2.fisZLws>";§€5.’Q&i1a<.}A&1¢.3sm¢;(rA&t;32A1E».J3."‘ A‘)m.au:.m:'
r
sense
..-
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-4158
www.hendersonlegalservices.c0m
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
without
some
Q.
storage
also
So
October 24, 2013
storage
you're
device.
saying
that
server
12
does
have
a
device?
A.
Must have
Q.
So
stored
is
at
it
a
storage device
possible
the
that
remote backup
for
to
store
the
database
server
25
files.
to be
12
or
not
in
outside
of
the
scope.
Woodhill?
TCHIARA:
Objection
(Witness
A.
a
So
I've
storage device
just been
on
to
thing has
a person
to have
of
a
skill
in
some
call—out of
server.
But it would be,
the
art
And I
don't
of course,
that
such
a
storage device.
It might be
continue to look
looking for
the backup file
see anything explicit.
obvious
reviewing)
if I
through the
——
it might be
specifications,
if
I
I would
find some mention of storage devices at the backup file
server,
but
it would be
obvious.
Q.
What's
the
purpose
A.
That’s
the place
o:
the
backup
file
that the backups
are
server?
stored
and managed in this system.
Q.
So would
it
have
to have
a
storage
device?
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PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
A.
Yes
--
MR.
CH ARA:
answered
A.
-—
not No.
Objection,
asked
and
—~
it would have
MR.
A.
October 24, 2013
DICHIARA:
to have
——
outside
--
of
scope.
It would have to have a storage device.
19
storage device,
kind to make
Q.
So
stored at
Maybe
but a storage device of some
sense.
is
it
possible
the
remote backup
MR.
D:CHIARA:
that
database
server
12
25
is
also
in Woodhill
or
not?
A.
Objection outside of the
scope.
I don’t think it's not possible —- sorry.
think it is unlikely
that that database
is
I
stored at the
remote backup.
Q.
Is
it
MR.
BY MR.
possible
DICHIARA:
or
not?
Same
objection.
RHOA:
Q.
You
said
"unlikely."
Is
it
possible
or not?
A.
Oh,
it‘s possible,
Q.
Woodhill describes a backup procedure,
A.
Yes.
sure.
£z;:;<.;u.>m*"sl;“e.«m‘a'A. ~'*
4-. .~.’
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right?
a;:'=;‘:;a;. .,.‘~‘»~~A;»;v.'.ms-:.:m.s.“‘;.a'r.;:/.»*>.'«;.‘.‘a22.V./.a:“La‘“.z‘yr“.’i‘.'H«§3
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWWhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
89
Q.
During Woodhill's
Woodhill
Binary
compare
Object
different
a Binary Object
"denticier
For
does
"dent“ier with a prior
the
same
file
or
for
a
file?
MR.
DICHIARA:
A.
The
same file.
Q.
So
Objection,
vague.
during backup,
Woodhill
for a given
is
binary object
file,
backup procedure,
file
can only tell
i:
in that particular
correct?
MR.
A.
I
DICHHARA:
think
that's
Objection,
right.
I
form.
understand that
the
binary object is —— a binary object gets an identifier.
And ii
one,
that it identifier has not changed from the last
then there is no need to back the new one up
because
it's
Q.
cannot
other
the
So
out
that
MR.
A.
So
I
-—
:i&1»f<;>du7;.{bu~u.
" maa‘
,
202-220-415 8
is
last
one.
backup procedure,
if a given binary object
are
at
DICHIARA:
following caveat:
object
the
in Woodhill's
figure
files
same as
I
the
remote
Objection,
agree with
That,
that it is
backup
to me,
exists
server
in
12?
form.
that except for with
the
the idea of a binary
associated with
—'Ac»$"'’=;~,‘ab‘mwm~‘ ~.a,;,Ms.>,. .‘~~9s.xsa.e:/(.w3Ac"'I.’x§S9_'1é%’fl.|w"‘
Woodhill
a particular file.
;'1raI£$.*3«*$~kC{i?.:i$‘a§lU~Ewl€JL5JL~Li4(sJ:A.L5::.€v’. "
ram
mym.:§—'5
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
90
So
it wouldn't make
to be
in
any other
Q.
12,
So
if there
100
fi1es
Okay.
Q.
And during Woodhi1l's
is
backing up
Let‘s
call
it
A.
Okay.
Q.
So Woodhill
object
is
in any 0:
there
at
MR.
A.
make
are
A.
files.
not
file.
at
the backup
server
okay?
Woodhill
100,
sense for a particular binary object
an
I
the
a binary object
file No.
cannot
the
remote
DZCHIARA:
wouldn't put
20,
for
files
one
if
that
1
through
19
backup
server,
right?
Objection,
it
or
binary
21
through
l
1
form.
that way.
It's
of those
okay?
determine
inability of Woodhill.
sense
backup procedure,
Woodhill
that
--
§
that does
in Woodhill.
The binary object you're backing up
belongs
way
in
to
a
certain
any of
Q.
multiple
Is
the
file.
other
it possible
So
it doesn't exist
in
files.
for
a binary object
to
exist
in
files?
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202-220-415 8
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
explain
that
that
the way
MR.
A.
So
October 24, 2013
is
DZCHIARA:
that is
to
me.
--
Objection
the way
I
outside
of
the
scope.
understand Woodhill,
into binary objects.
it divides
a file
they are.
And another file gets other binary objects.
And there
aren't
—-
And that's
is
there's
no
where
sharing of
_binary objects between files.
Q.
Let's
A.
Okay.
Q.
And,
say
I'm an
author
and
i
write
a
book,
okay?
lot
of
every
you
pictures
day,
Z
and
save
So
After day two,
I
have
draft
binary
the
2
And
object,
my
a
in
it.
version
after
day
in
one,
book draft
three.
let's
it's
say
After
pretty
And
a
at
have
two.
day
each page
book
the
’erent
di
I
long
After
in
I
that
end
a
of
file.
book
200,
with
draft
one.
day three,
have
book
book
is
okay?
A.
Okay.
Q.
The
drafts,
stuff
have
book draft
200.
know,
first page
doesn't
change
My-wm&We«¢
through many of
okay?
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Www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
A.
I'm with you.
Q.
So
object
you're
cannot
A.
changes
exist
Your
to
saying
that
in
different
the
hypothetical was
the
same
file.
that
"rst
page
files?
that you were
You were
binary
not making
starting over and
giving it a new name and having a new file on each day.
So
every draft is
every draft‘s binary objects
are
a
separate
file.
So
separate from every
other draft‘s binary objects.
Q.
and
it's
still
Even
though
identical
doesn't
MR.
outside
A.
in
exist
the
first
all
the
in more
3 CH ARA;
tie
this
is
drafts,
than
one
a
binary
you're
object
saying
it
file?
Objection misstates
testimony,
scope.
The binary object,
understands
page
is
that
—-
the binary
——
from one
file
sense for a binary object
file despite the fact
it does
the way Woodhill
it doesn't make
to be
in another
that the contents might be
identical.
Q.
multiple
A.
Can
the
contents
o:
a
binary
object
in
files?
Oh,
yes.
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
exist
mu/~_was*‘vrt-de%.¢i&>;M:52»4<1«z§A
V
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
Q.
object
So
October 24, 2013
in Woodhill,
could
be
A.
Yes.
Q.
So
in
in
10
our
the contents
different
files
book
the
same.
The
contents
all
1,000
are
is
always
present
in
A.
That
Q.
So
server
object
No.
In
Q.
I'm
for
that
or
12
20,
A.
if
page
1
1
a
o:
binary
object
right?
are
100
is
files
at
backing up
the
remote
a binary
file?
sorry.
No.
Woodhill
Q.
Woodhill
binary object
100
cannot
are
backing up
at
determine
in any of
the
DICHZARA:
the
Objection
hypothetical,
A.
system does
zx.«.e.~.-iwuz,3’
if
the
files
remote backup
improper
<A
is
a binary
20?
I‘m with you.
The
page
are
okay?
file
MR.
files,
there
drafts,
of that
and Woodhill
some
through
of book
there
A.
21
where
is my understanding of Woodhill.
when,
backup
fi1es?
hypothetical
thousand different
of a binary
contents
1
server
outside
of
through
of
19
12,
right?
the
scope,
form.
not do
that.
, ;‘g;%t§~
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWW.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
Q.
October 24, 2013
So Woodhiii
binary object
——
cannot
let me
rephrase
Woodhill
contents
in
the
of
a
figure out
cannot
that.
figure
given binary object
system,
MR.
if a given
out
exists
if
the
in other
files
right?
DICHIARA:
Objection,
form,
outside
of
the
scope.
A.
That's
Q.
Let's take
numbered
1
right.
through
A.
Okay.
Q.
Can
numbers
MR.
BY
MR.
Q.
1
II
that
has
10 binary objects
okay?
figure
out
i.
-he
contents
of
1 exists as any of the other binary
through
10
——
{IARA:
Objection.
RHOA:
——
for
MR.
outside
A.
10,
Woodhill
binary object No.
object
a file
that
file?
DICHIARA:
of the
I'm sorry.
Objection,
form,
scope.
That is not how Woodhill works in my
understanding.
Q.
Why not?
Why can't Woodhill
figure that
" "aux ‘
out?
J‘/;*I£;§.§»:~éu.:zn'”&:»"‘wi4/:.;"t‘ $5§.K‘/}.‘z.’x6a9;v’.}‘£Y.‘van"sM.v‘~;'.;e:+aa:L:».~'s.2s'.*m-;<,. x.:.>m.a". .<--
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
95
MR.
A.
out,
DZCHIARA:
objections.
I don't like to phrase it,
but that's not what the
Q.
Why doesn't
A.
It wasn't
MR.
A.
have
Same
he can't figure it
system does.
Woodhill
figure
that
out?
--
DZCHIARA:
Asked
Not the way the
figured that out,
and
answered.
system was designed.
I guess,
He could
but that's not his
system.
Q.
0:
a
So Woodhill
given binary object
system or
that
cannot
in
figure
exists
in
other binary objects
out
other
o:
the
if
the
files
same
contents
in
the
file;
is
right?
MR.
the
DiCHiARA:
scope,
A.
So
something.
Objection
and object
to the
I would say -—
I would say his
Q.
But his
A.
Yes.
Q.
It
does
It does
that?
not do
that.
cannot
0:
question.
system doesn‘t do that.
do
So Woodhill
form of the
outside
I would not say he can't do
system does not
not
misstates,
do that,
figure
out
i:
right?
the
content
»
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www.hendersonlegalservices.c0m
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
o:
October 24, 2013
a given binary object
exists
only at
the
remote
backup server 12 because Woodhill cannot
figure out i;
the
in other
at
content
the
o:
local
that binary object
computers,
MR.
form o:
files
correct?
DICHIARA:
the
exists
Objection
outside of the
scope,
question.
A.
I
actually
Q.
:‘ll
A.
Okay.
Q.
So Woodhill
read
lost
it
the
scenario
there.
1
back.
cannot
figure
out
i:
the
contents
11
of a given binary object exists
12
backup server 12 because Woodhill cannot figure out if
13
the contents of that binary object exists in other files
14
at
the
local
15
computers,
MR.
DICHIARA:
only at the remote
Same objections,
scope and form of the question.
17
A.
I didn't lose it this
time.
18
correct.
19
That's not the way the system works.
I
outside of the
think that is
I would say, I wouldn't say cannot.
20
Q.
Woodhill
21
A.
Does not do that with respect to the contents,
22
1
correct?
16
But again,
1
does
not
do
that?
the stream of bits that constitutes the binary object.
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
I
WWW.henderson1ega1serVices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
Do
I
you
October 24, 2013
have
Woodhill
in
front
of
you?
do.
Can
you
turn
to
claim
3
o:
Woodhill?
(Witness doing as requested)
A.
Okay.
Q.
Qefore
other question.
the
A.
Okay.
Q.
So
go
down
that
of
Woodhill
contents
of
that
that
at
the
MR.
let
binary
remote
DICHZARA:
object
server
Same
cannot
exists
l2,
me
ask
here,
cannot
a given binary object
computer because Woodhill
are
road,
I'm shifting backwards
similarly,
contents
local
I
okay?
figure
exists
out
i:
only at
figure
in
one
out
other
if
a
the
files
correct?
objections,
outside
of
.C
scope
A.
I
and
So
I
lorm
of
think
the
that's
question.
right with
the proviso
that
still would rather not say that something can't
happen.
But rather that's not the way the system works
in my understanding.
And further that we are talking
about the sequence of bits and not about the binary
object,
which Woodhill does establish as present here
and there because he's organized around binary objects
'
,
202-220-4158
I ‘v‘éMW’:M5‘.v."""L€.r§9>I‘;ah‘n‘i.6):.m.;:&«;.“"""
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
'~mL<.-».a. ‘>'~/*za',.¢.m~~'1.3/ra-'a:a.w~;‘;¢-;:.‘§u:u-‘.2
.
WWW.henderson1ega1serVices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
as pieces
of particular
files.
Q.
Woodhill
not
A.
Does
MR.
the
BY
October 24, 2013
MR.
does
not d
Objection,
Vague,
outside
of
RHOA:
Does
not
do
front
o:
A.
I
Q.
in
what
you're
Back
we
——
I'll
withdraw
it.
saying.
to
claim 3
of
Woodhill.
Do
you
have
you?
do.
claim
3
of
Woodhill
is
in
column
22;
is
right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Above
see
column
that,
claim
the
A.
Yes.
Q.
At
of
is
the
bottom of
continuation o:
the
column
.,
claim
claim
1.
Do
1
that
goes
into
lines
3
and
4,
it
says
"said
Identifier being
saved
as
the
associated binary object."
..”...._§r.. 5,, . 3;;
,
22,
Binary Object
Do
202-220-415 8
3
22?
calculated
name
--
DICHIARA:
understand what
you
that?
scope.
Q.
that
do
,
you
see
that?
,.,_‘-,», ,$_;,_W,_., ,—, A._., .,. N ._
v£»«’sA.v 9,,
1 M ,,.,,,_ , 7,,
,. 4%,, W .,,,,-,., —
Dr
;« . i.
1
-., . ., _,.
*4 «~
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
www.hendersonlegalserVices.con1
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
A.
Yes.
Q.
Do
Woodhill
is
you
and
MR.
October 24, 2013
understand what
where
that
DiCHiARA:
the
claims
section
of
is?
Objection
vague,
outside
o:
scope.
A.
I understand where claims appear normally in a
patent and here
Q.
are
So
they are.
you
from column
understand
21,
line
that
the
56 up to
claims
column
in
24,
Woodhill
line
47,
right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Does
describe
of
the
Woodhill,
saving
other
than
a binary object
in
the
claims,
identifier as
the
name
associated binary object?
MR.
DICHIARA:
Objection
outside of the
scope,
form.
A.
I
am not positive.
Q.
Do
you
declarations
recall
I
stating
think not.
in
several
of your reply
about Woodhill dividing something?
rephrase that.
I'll
take you to
Let me
something directly
here.
Do
m.\v.;'a‘e-
W
you
have
your
reply
declaration
;fiW.%-nI~M4§=:@«‘?mre<wl»&2$"5'a
for
Q
az.w:;
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PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
the
‘79l
patent
Not on
Q.
On page
BY MR.
of
top yet.
3
of
you?
Yes.
that
declaration,
you
state
DICHI
RHOA:
Q.
Do
A.
I
MR.
you have page
do.
3
in
front
of
you?
He doesn't.
MR.
RHOA:
Tell me
MR.
DICHIARA:
when
you're
ready,
Pete.
Okay.
RHOA:
Q.
state:
At
the beginning of paragraph
"Woodhill's backup procedure
copies
data
front
~-
MR.
BY
in
A.
"Woodhill's"
October 24, 2013
of
files
by dividing
each
file
5
on page
3,
you
creates backup
into
one
or more
streams."
Do
you
see
that?
Yes.
Can
you
identify
where
(Witness
A.
go
to
Yes.
Starting in
the picture also.
Woodhill
reviewing)
column
7,
line
"Program control
;.m';»;>ma-"as-anx.'.'em.“-'-’w;v . Z>».=»§‘AA"“
discloses
40,
I
want to
then continues
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V“4£L’
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWW.hendersonlegalserviees.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
101
with step 132 where the Distributed Storage Manager
program 24
queue
separates the file identified by the backup
record 75
component data
currently being processed into
streams."
And then
the
flowchart is
I
just want
that
is
sorry.
labeled separate
Separate file
Doesn't
disclose
is
in
form 0:
A.
skill
could be
Q.
Woodhill,
A.
_
kw”
the
It uses
in
data
in
file
data
-—
what
Please
streams
--
streams.
Figure
into
5A of
data
Woodhill
streams
where
plural?
Objection
outside
the
scope,
question.
the plural
of
streams.
the art looking at this
just one
But a person
would understand it
%m2Mw.e<A,1'-~a:»;xn«$
stream.
refer
column 7,
I
a
"32
info
to
column
lines
40
—
7,
44.
where
you
cited
in
Are you there?
am there.
DICHIARA:
5
_ ; .,%,’b .4». ,. I . 2,.
I
,
am not.
,2
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
the
reviewing)
file
into
D_CHrARA:
the
MR.
.
box
separating
MR.
of
check
It's flowchart in Figure 5A and 132 is a box
Q.
streams
to
132.
(Witness
A.
its
Hm
N w_,.3m_m%.m\,_,, 1,\w_.\_;«,hw,.—1 1:, gm
,
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
102
(Interruption
THE
Mr.
Rhoa‘s
line
BY
MR.
40
I
question,
through
just
:
now
was
court
said,
reading
in
reporter)
answer
to
from column
7,
44.
RHOA:
Q.
line
WITNESS:
from
40
Similarly,
through
multiple
data
44,
doesn't
disclose
streams,
again,
Woodhill,
at
columns
separating the
where
streams
File
is
into
in
the
plural?
A.
I
"streams"
would give
in
The
Well,
isolation,
into
letter
is plural,
A.
S
but a person of
at
stream means
I would expect
or more?
A.
Two
or more,
the
end
of
You don‘: dispute
the word
two
right.
"streams"
that
that?
in
streams.
But
its component data streams"
as
the word
stream.
looking at
Two
streams
That
just one data
right?
Q.
of skill,
answer.
the art reading this would understand
that a file might have
streams
same
is definitely in the plural,
ordinary skill
Q.
the
the phrase
"process
would mean to a person
you would separate the file into as many
it has.
g.s;g.a/.«. 4.»*asz.7—’>&’. u"‘;3,.z‘%.w1;$4‘i1ZL,4,%2;j.\V.<§~.’ wag‘=,—>,m.‘:m\:£»’(.:L‘{5/a:."‘wk.":.:¢L—;&.“.k«1.‘umn‘)‘.‘b"..:"£t;¢zJ:;é
I
Henderson Legal Services, 1110.
202-220-415 8
www.hen.derson1ega1serVices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
Q.
into
October 24, 2013
Does Woodhill
one
data
A.
Well
--
DICHIARA:
Z'm going
form of the
question.
invites
him
to
ask the
question without
to
do
A.
review
I
Does
A.
the
object
form of
document.
to
the
tiat
question
It's
giving him an
would say yes because
disclose -- what was
one
That
to
unfair
to
opportunity
that.
So
Q.
:
stream?
MR.
into
ever describe dividing a
data
So
the question?
Woodhill
ever
this very sentence
Says?
describe
Discloses?
dividing
a
file
stream?
I
would say this very passage describes
that with the understanding of a person of skill
in the
art.
in
Q.
Which passage
are
you referring to?
A.
The same one,
740
to 43,
Q.
And you would say that
the
plural
A.
,.~,..mV,. . _
even though streams
is
there?
Yes.
MR.
form
essentially.
of
DICHIARA:
the
Objection,
asked
and
answered;
question.
-
M”>\;né-.&""fima-4."
~—
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATE-NTNOS; 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
104
BY MR.
RHOA:
Q.
would
Is
there
contend
that
MR.
the
A.
I
just were.
box
132
Q.
D
that
would
The
I
file
again,
in Woodhill
objections
to
ask
you
the
says
to
form o:
question
to
review
it.
figure where we
forget what it was
into data
as
that
opportunity
least at
that
where
disclosed?
Same
him an
say at
——
separate
else
and unfair
giving
And
is
CH ARA:
question
without
any place
-—
5A.
Yeah,
streams.
"streams"
in
the plural,
1
right?
A.
5A
Yes.
§
MR.
BY MR.
says
DICHIARA:
objections
as
before.
E
RHOA:
Q.
.3ut
A.
I
Q.
Even
you're
alleging
that
didn't understand.
though
"separating
A.
Same
into
Box
data
132
means
Say
in
--
Figure
streams,"
singular?
5A
of Woodhill
plural
~—
Yes.
——
your
opinion is
that
that means
a
single
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PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
105
as
that
thing has.
The
text at
column
7
was
a little
clearer about separating the file into its component
data streams;
Q.
that is however make up the file.
Are
there
any
you believe Woodhill
single
data
column
you
D“CH"ARA:
to make
Are
sit
Same
you
here
aware
right
I
Q.
Please
c:
file
into
a
objections
as
before.
to go through every
any other places
in Woodhill,
am not.
back up.
handles
A.
where
now?
refer
in Woodhill
Different
Program 24
that
Woodhill
sure.
A.
let me
in
separating a
So that would require me
Q.
as
describes
places
stream?
MR.
A.
other
Is
column
4,
lines
—~
question:
in Woodhill
the backup processes,
Program 24?
to
is
the program
right?
that from a figure?
Distributed storage management program.
(Witness
A.
So
that would
-—
I
reviewing)
don't
think
that's
the program that does the backup function.
all
of
I would
expect something at the backup —— what did they call
it?
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PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
106
The remote backup
Q.
Do
5L
you
Refer
see
to
column
4
in Woodhill
line
62
A.
Yes.
Q.
So the backup procedures
of
Figures
DICHIARA:
document.
MR.
MR.
64.
5A through
in Woodhill are all handled by program 24,
it's
to
that?
MR.
BY
server.
a
Objection misstates
right?
the
You might want to look at the question.
RHOA:
little
I'll
weird
ask the
on
question
again because
the
screen
here.
Woodhill
column
4
RHOA:
Q.
Referring
through 64,
to
5A through 5L,
right?
Is illustrated through by way of flowcharts
SA and SL.
Q.
62
Woodhill discloses that the program 24
handles the procedures of Figures
A.
lines
in
That's what it says.
Are
there
any backup procedures
that are not controlled by program 24,
in Woodhill
to your
knowledge?
14
A.
Controlled?
Q.
So
to
15,
let's
okay?
To my knowledge,
go to
Are
you
column
4
no.
of Woodhill
now,
there?
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202-220-415 8
lines
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Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
WWW.henders0n1ega1serVices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
107
as
a
A.
Yes.
Q.
Woodhill
collection
A.
Yes.
Q.
Does
separated
A.
to me
to
to
data
You
you
see
that
a
views
it
a
file
that?
file
is
streams?
that passage does not suggest
separated in multiple data
date
indicate
into multiple
stream
to
data
DICHIARA:
You didn't
MR.
A.
you
that
streams,
Asked
and
is
streams.
I
fine.
a
file
that
is
sentence?
answered.
Q.
streams,"
answer
the
question.
DiCHIARA:
So if you mean by multiple more than one,
would say that is
So
you
where
covers
A.
"program 24
RHOA:
Q.
that
indicate
say that one
MR.
that
streams."
into multiple
Does
separated
MR.
data
that
it must be
Q.
I
of
It does not ——
continue
BY
states
a
not
think
telling me
the
"streams"
phrase
is
in
single
data
Certainly,
yes.
And what's
your basis
then
that.
"collection
the plural,
of
data
you think
stream?
of
that
allegation?
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Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
That
MR.
A.
person
about
October 24, 2013
-—
DICHIARA:
Two bases,
of
ordinary
this
Objection.
really.
skill
context.
in
One
the
is
that is
what a
art would understand
And second,
a
collection
doesn't
mean plural.
I
can have
collector of triangular
airplanes.
of
one
-- you know,
stamp
stamps with upside down
stamp.
One
understand
multiple
A.
of
that
Well
streams
So
skill
with
an
in
S
the
CH ARA:
end means
Objection,
asked
and
answered;
testimony.
if you put the
on a flashcard in front of a person of
what sort of streams
that's
telling the person
or any context at all,
plural.
there
-Km
would
right?
ordinary skill in the art without
is
at
art
separated from the context,
word "streams"
would say
the
--
D
misstates
A.
ordinary
streams,
MR.
in.‘«am
can be a
And I only own one of those in my collection
Q.
Q.
I
any
That means more
place
in Woodhill
a person
than
where
one.
Woodhill
~>.s;-;.n-.a.‘~n;'4.».s.-"W
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PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
109
describes
a
file
MR.
o:
the
into
DICHIARA:
question
opportunity
A.
going
to
a
single
Same
is
data
objection
unfair to
stream?
as
before,
ask without
form
giving an
review.
So we've been
to a few places
like
that where
I've said that a person of ordinary skill would say that
showing this file of being divided into its component
data streams
Q.
which could be
And
all
stream with an
A.
That is
MR.
BY
MR.
on the
in Woodhill
end to be plural,
use
right?
right.
DZCHIARA:
What's
word
A.
of those places
stream.
Objection,
form.
RHOA:
Q.
the
S
three
just one data
your understanding of
the meaning o:
"collection"?
Collection
is not particularly a term of art.
I would say it‘s a set.
I
think it has
the ordinary
.~-,«:rA‘vn
colloquial meaning here.
MR.
exhibit
RHOA:
would
like
Clark Reply Exhibit
(Exhibit
BY MR.
I
3
marked
for
to
introduce
an
3.
identification)
RHOA:
'6
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-4158
,
wwwhendersonlegalservices.c0m
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
110
Do you have Clark Exhibit
A.
I
Q.
Does
this
appear to be
front of you?
A very old one,
Q.
Is
the
the
excerpt
:
Dictionary?
A.
word
yes.
"collection"
defined
in
Exhibit
A.
Yes,
Q.
Are
3
reviewing)
it is.
there
that
any definitions
of
collection
in
you disagree with?
(Witness
MR.
ZARA:
reviewing)
Objection
to
form,
outside
the
scope.
A.
No,
Q.
So
I
don't disagree with any of them.
the
definition
that
collection
group of objects or works to be seen,
together,"
of
3
dictionary?
(Witness
Exhibit
in
do.
American Heritage
in this
3
do
you
think
that's
a
"means
a
¢‘<.~:f-v
studied or kept
reasonable
definition
collection?
A.
Yes.
And I
further interpret
that to mean
that the group of objects could have one object.
stamp
collection
isn't not
——
doesn't fail
to be
My
a
;. ~_., ,. . —,. . §r3..4— ya, ..,,._,.,,M;. W,
202-220-4158
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,
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
collection
just because
Q.
Your
A.
Yes.
Q.
Don‘:
MR.
:
the
A.
I
Q.
So
"collection
say
I
only have one
testimony
you
is
that
think that's
DICHIARA:
a
can be
little
Objection,
don't find it
at Woodhill
of
data
one?
strange?
argumentative;
form
Q.
If we
of
strange,
column
streams,"
replace
data
streams,"
Yes.
Q.
And your testimony
means
A.
No.
MR.
No.
I
line
don't.
15,
it
says
right?
collection with
A.
streams
4,
no,
i
Yes.
A.
group
thing.
question.
A.
"group
October 24, 2013
one
data
it would
§
right?
is
that
§
group of data
stream?
DICHIARA:
I
group,
Objection misstates.
would say
it
——
it includes
the
possibility of one as interpreted in this context by a
person
of
Q.
streams,
ordinary skill
You don't
in
the
think that
requires multiple
data
art.
the phrase,
group of
data
streams?
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PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
112
MR.
A.
is
So
D"CH"ARA:
Objection,
the hypothetical
is
the word
replaced by the word "group."
front of
a person
of
skill
in
asked
and
answered.
"collection"
And then I put this in
the
art.
And what does
that person think about the possibility of one data
stream
in
that group.
And that person would say Fine with me.
Q.
one
Do you think Woodhill
data
times
A.
the
DICHIARA:
algorithms
procedure,
answered multiple
the possibility of one
that work with
Woodhill
describes
a
and all
one.
granularization
right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Is
large
Asked and
already.
So he includes
Q.
for
actually describing
stream here?
MR.
of
is
Woodhill's
database
A.
Yes.
Q.
There
are
files
granularization procedure
used
with multiple binary objects?
granules
granularization procedure,
in
Woodhill's
right?
A.
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Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
113
Are
the
MR.
D
granules
CH ARA:
declaration;
A.
Can
something that
Q.
are
file,
procedure
the
the
granules
named
ordinary meaning
in Woodhill's
Is
of
reply
I
the
named file
don't
in
the
is
remember.
art
o:
named
granularization
reviewing)
think not.
Do
Q.
scope
files?
(Witness
I
the
files?
question.
somebody construed?
your
A.
o:
named
reminded of whether
Use
I
Woodhill
Outside
form of
I be
in
the
granules
have
filenames?
think not.
a
hash
ever
applied
to multiple
granules
in
Woodhill?
A.
Yes.
MR.
BY
MR.
18
19
multiple
21
22
So your testimony is
granules
A.
Yes.
Q.
Where?
A.
When
$<h_.,\_N AMMM
Objection,
form.
RHOA:
Q.
20
DICHZARA:
;, . ;-. ,S_._..,;.
the
in
that
a hash
is
applied to
that
—-
shadow file
Woodhill?
shadow file
the
. ,_ .. ,
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Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
114
of a binary object consisting of a sequence of granules,
when that shadow file is backed up,
that shadow file
gets its own —— becomes it‘s own BOB.
BOB ID.
And gets
And there's a hash of that set of granules.
Q.
Is
the
shadow
file
a
granule?
MR.
JICHIARA:
A.
The
shadow file is not a granule.
Q.
So
let me
it
and
MR.
D
listen to
ask
the
Objection,
ask the
answer the
CH
answered the
BY MR.
its own
ARA:
Z
form.
question again.
question
don't
--
like
that
question you asked.
question
tone.
Maybe
He
you didn't
—~
RHOA:
Q.
Is
a hash ever
MR.
DICHIARA:
applied to multiple
granules
in
Woodhill?
A.
Yes.
And when
Objection
to
the
that happens,
happens is that a shadow file,
the
form.
reason
that
collection of granules,
is backed up by the ordinary file backup process.
hash
is
consists
Q.
taken
of
to
the
What's
compute
the BOB
ID
for
the BOB
that
granules.
a
shadow
file made up of?
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Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
115
says
A.
Granules.
Q.
Really?
a
shadow
MR.
Can
' “We
D
you
is made
CH ARA:
show me
up
of
where
in
Woodhill
it
granules?
I'm going
to
object
as
argumentative.
(Witness
A.
Oh,
yes.
I
frustration with me.
So
see where you are and I
So
the
reviewing)
I'm not right.
shadow file
is
a collection of
granule hashes of content identifiers.
pardon.
More brain
So
see your
I
—-
I beg your
.
lock.
a number of
last 5 or 10 minutes are,
things
I've
said in
the
with that misunderstanding,
are not right.
Q.
you
don't
Let
me
A.
the
understand
Is
granules
ask
in
a
it
hash
question
this
again.
Let
me
know
if
time.
ever
applied to multiple
Woodhill?
You mean a single hash applied to multiple
granules?
Q.
That's
what
I
mean.
(Witness
)E.mA..*5x."‘ S)«wxlfn>sA.Em’‘“:;¢ma.x.-.ua:z"mum.’*gym’.m->.;m. .*"
,
202-220-4158
><».i“’/§ai‘s'.x‘~
'°.$.v‘3»$<’
reviewing)
my-.:;:,;;«.a<mw.;.~.»m.<:
vent’
:r
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
www.hendersonlegalservices.coIn
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
MR.
I
Q.
objects
DICHIARA:
Outside
of
the
scope.
think not.
Is
in
October 24, 2013
a hash ever applied to multiple binary
Woodhill?
MR.
3 CH ALA:
Same
objection
outside
the
scope.
‘S44
A.
No,
it
Q.
Can
you pull
patent,
isn't.
up
your
only
the
A.
Yes.
Q.
Turn to page
A.
I
Q.
Last
ordinary
logical
for
the
please?
(Witness
of
reply declaration
5.
doing
Are
you
as
requested)
there?
am there.
four
skill
place
disk drives
lines
in
the
for
of the
of paragraph
art
would
shadow
local
files
7,
you
understand
to
computer
be
state
that
stored
that
stores
"One
the
is
on
and
processes the binary objects being backed up using the
granularization technique."
Do
you
see
that?
/'
— «ea:
:«»aéwmkiM#z&%fxW.Aev—;~h,s_‘€-<r*
1%:/,
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
Does
MR.
October 24, 2013
Woodhill
D"CH”ARA:
ever
expressly
Objection,
state
form of
that?
the
question.
A.
that,
I do not know whether he ever expressly states
but that would be the understanding of a person of
skill reading this.
Not reading my declaration but
reading Woodhill.
Q.
is
somewhere
it
else
MR.
A.
be.
I
possible
in
that
shadow
files
are
stored
.~:«}17¢ag-&£%Kv,x';<myC4/\z»
Woodhill?
DZCHIARA:
Objection
don't know what
other
form of the question.
candidate
there would
I'm finished.
Q.
stored
Is
it
possible
somewhere
MR.
else
in
DICHIARA:
that
shadow
files
could be
Woodhill?
Asked
and
answered;
form
of
the
question.
A.
So
I
MR.
A.
~—
would say
DICHIARA:
--
Outside
of
the
scope.
that is not what a person of
think happens in Woodhill.
skill would
There's always ways you can
redesign the system in different ways.
my understanding of what happens
But that's not
in Woodhill.
~c '
.5
.,
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWW.henders0n1ega1serViees.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
Is
it
MR.
possible?
DICHIARA:
Same
scope,
form,
A.
—- you can do
think
I
asked
if you did that,
Q.
shadow
Does
files
A.
and
the
in a lot of ways,
but
I
describe
the
format
in
which
stored?
JZCHIARA:
and there's
Q.
outside
answered.
things
Objection
I don't believe
a file
objections,
you wouldn't be Woodhill.
Woodhill
are
MR.
is
October 24, 2013
so.
On
form of
the
question.
the other hand,
no particular format for
Could Woodhill's
shadow
files
be
a file
this
stored
l
one.
as
ZIP
files?
A.
Oh
--
MR.
CH ARA:
hypothetical,
scope
A.
can
of
the
improper
form of the question,
reply
so you
And
Zip
files
MR.
DICHZARA:
outside o: the
declaration.
But intriguing.
zip anything,
Q.
Objection,
Could a
can
zip a
existed
at
shadow file
—— you
shadow file,
the
time
sure.
s~awzmc'xg
of Woodhill,
right?
the
Same
set
of
objections;
scope.
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
outside
,
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
119
Yes.
So multiple
shadow
‘file with Woodhill,
MR.
DICHIARA:
files
could
be
stored
in
right?
Same
objection,
improper
hypothetical.
A.
You can
MR.
zip
RHOA:
Reserve the
anything,
No
further
right to
MR.
D"CH"ARA:
MR.
RHOA:
sure.
questions
recross
Short
i:
on
cross.
appropriate.
break?
Sure.
(Short
ECT
Recess)
EXAMINATION
,:C3IARA:
Q.
that Mr.
Dr.
Clark,
Rhoa was
do
you
recall
asking you some
a
little
questions
Woodhill and specifically asked you about
"collection of streams"
bit
earlier
about
the phrase
and particularly just the word
"stream"?
A.
Yes.
Q.
All
front
of
right.
Do you have Woodhill patent
in
you?
'- Wm’
W.‘
~w.ax~.v..m>
‘
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
www.henders0n1ega1serVices.c0m
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
line
October 24, 2013
A.
Yes.
Q.
:'m going
3.
And you
column 1
to
can
ask you
but
attention
to
turn
actually start
through whatever,
column 2,
to
to
at
column 2,
the bottom o:
the preceding paragraph on
I'm going to eventually direct
line
3.
(Witness
THE
your
WITNESS:
reviewing)
Okay.
CH ARA:
Q.
And Mr.
questions
about
A.
He
Q.
Line
one
or more
Yes.
Q.
Do
in
with a
3
refers
you
any
specific
right?
to
storing data
binary objects,
files
comprised
right?
an opinion about
art would
how a person
interpret Woodhill
in
o:
connection
comprised of one binary object?
MR.
A.
this passage,
you have
the
file
didn't ask
did hot.
A.
skill
Rhoa
RHOA:
Objection,
My opinion would be
form.
that
it would not be
different from files comprised of more than one binary
object.
‘
.x-.4
’eE.»i.A*"*>'u.".$%w¢:.>2‘
'
ma‘
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWWhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
Q.
Do
you
October 24, 2013
have
an
opinion
whether
comprised of one binary object would have
two,
three,
sense
of
any number o:
how many
streams
streams?
would
be
a
file
zero,
Do you have
involved
for
one,
any
a
file
with one binary object?
5
A.
one
I think with one binary object, you would have
stream.
8
Q.
And you're certain about that;
is that right?
9
A.
I am not certain.
10
Q.
And then Z’m going to also ask you to turn to
It's just that makes sense.
11
column 4.
And specifically starting around line 15 and
12
extending down to about line 19,
13
there is a sentence that says
14
defined as
15
that may be changed independently from other distinct
16
data within the
distinct
17
data within the
file
right?
So far so good?
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
And it says,
20
"The data stream is
collection o:
file,"
you see there that
its normal
"For example,
a file may contain
data and may also contain extended attribute
'‘§wmrasxze-2»«:<;i@WM%&.~,u>“kvA
data."
Do you have
ma"
an opinion about how a person
.<~x».».«=
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
of
skill
in the
sentence,
data
relates
to
A.
it
also
would interpret
says
a
contain
the number of
or both
to me
file
may
extended
streams
So may contain
suggests
this
that
second
contain
its
attribute
data,
that may be
and may
also
that a file may contain one
normal
in a
as
file?
contain
or
it
the
that
other
or neither.
Q.
Mr.
art
where
and may
October 24, 2013
And
Rhoa
remember
was
I
asking you
A.
I
Q.
Do
A.
that
there
about
were
points
directories.
Do
where
you
that?
MR.
directory
believe
RHOA:
Objection,
beyond the
scope.
don't remember directories.
you
have
an
understanding
about
what
a
file
is?
Yes.
MR.
RHOA:
Objection,
beyond the
scope
of
CIOSS .
BY MR.
D_CHlARA:
Q.
And
directory
is
a
MR.
BY MR.
ui
-*sW.,sa4.:.;’‘w
do
you
have
an
opinion
collection
of
files
RHOA:
about
whether
a
--
Objection.
DICHIARA:
i~x..u/'.'L«.aa'y.:;urm',~.\:‘.-.u>':.:.»u-'~*
4. “
‘ " ‘ '~‘~- “x‘.£'.n\.’vt'»€lr.:mi2'm‘l>¢£.4=u'~.'e.s«.r;\‘*L§x‘s.
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
—~
or
MR.
October 24, 2013
a
RHOA:
cross.
It's
A.
I
Do
directory
of
files?
Objection,
also
have
beyond the
scope
of
leading.
an
opinion
about whether
a
--
Q.
First,
opinion,
group
I'm going
and then
MR.
I
Q.
directory
Do
you
is
a
MR.
I'm going
RHOA:
lost
to
Same
the
ask
to
i:
you have
ask you what
an
that
i
is.
objections.
question now.
have
an
opinion
collection
RHOA:
of
about
whether
i
a
i
files?
Objection beyond the
scope
of
the
cross.
A.
In the computer biz,
Q.
And what
MR.
is
RHOA:
that
I do have an opinion.
opinion?
Objection beyond the
scope
o:
CIOSS.
A.
can be
A directory
a
collection
collection
Q.
I
hm,¢.,,.,,\;,,,_..
,,g._ $.41.
,
_.V,_. _,>_,
of
involving
Do
you
think
,
can be
have
other
some
any
that's
,,\..—...,,,»,, ~ . V; ,.
a
collection
directories.
files
of
It
files.
can be
It
a
and some directories.
-it.
Z
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
Www.henderson1ega1serVices.c0m
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
124
Q.
on
——
opinion
a minimum number
MR.
about
of
RHOA:
whether
files
in a
there's
a
limitation
directory?
Objection beyond the
scope
o:
CIOSS.
BY
MR.
DICHIARA:
Q.
And
if
so,
MR.
RHOA:
what
is
that?
It's
also
leading.
Same
objections.
A.
I
also have
Q.
Do
you
a minimum number
what
is
have
of
——
I
an
opinion
files
lost the question again.
in a
about
whether
directory?
there
And
if,
is
so
that?
MR.
RHOA:
Objection beyond the
scope
of
CIOSS.
A.
Yes,
zero.
Q.
Even
though
A.
I've had directories with nothing in
have plenty of
Q.
you
And
earlier,
it
says
"files"?
them.
I
those.
do
you
have
the
exhibit
Clark Reply Exhibit
3?
Mr.
It's
Rhoa
handed
the
dictionary.
A.
Now
I
do.
4,1“.
,
202-220-415 8
.2. ~
«
.
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
www.hendersonlegalservices.c0m
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
125
Q.
And
he
asked
you
about
the
definition
of
collections in connection with this dictionary, right?
like
A.
Yes.
Q.
And there's
A.
Yes.
Q.
And if you take a
a
collection
collected,
do
you
have
o:
definitions
look at
of monies
any minimum amount
that
several
as
in
an opinion
there,
right?
some
that
say things
church
with
a
about
money that must
whether
be
sum
there's
collected
7
definition?
MR.
RHOA:
Objection,
leading.
-CH_ARA:
A.
money,
the
if
MR.
RHOA:
I hope
but I
amount
Q.
Kantor
1004
And
what
is
that?
Objection,
leading.
that churches always
don't
see
any
limit to
——
collect some
lower
limit to
they could collect.
Okay.
exhibit
A.
I
Q.
Okay.
in
so,
the
So
I'm going to move
behind
lower
Kantor,
the
you?
left him on
So
on to
the
that's
floor.
the
one
that's
marked
EMC
right—hand corner?
l
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
WWW.henderson1ega1serVices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
126
A.
Yes.
Q.
And
tom o?
2
face
and
2
I'm going to ask you
to
3.
Where
Q.
Right,
"page
there
helps
real
2
and
3,
—-
not
the
are
little
Roman numerals
ii
and
which should say in the upper right
2."
Just
The
that
the
turn to pages
3?
A.
corner
And that's
to
like that.
Overview and
(Indicating)
Introduction
section,
if
you?
A.
I'm on page
Q.
You
see
at
2.
the bottom where
it
says
"purpose"?
i would like you to review that and the bridging
paragraph
on
the
top
of page
3.
(Witness
THE
BY MR.
WITNESS:
reviewing)
Okay.
I've
read
that.
DICHIARA:
Q.
A"
right.
And when Mr.
Rhoa was
asking you
.C'
questions
you
that
be_ore
about
passage,
did
A.
No.
Q.
And
in that
compression,
he
didn't
direct
says
"FWKCS
can
he?
passage,
it
to
.¢zw%M@maKxcsfipve,r«2:/g-;<1»7~\I_uLn
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
127
produce
a
kind of contents
"which does
not
collection,
nor method nor amount
then
it
depend on
signature,"
continues
A.
Yes.
Q.
Would
on,
a
person
of
skill
I
think
clearer still,
shortly be,
What
from
reading
A.
Knowing that it's
of
is
I
Q.
amounts
And
the
of
art
have
an
compression?
that understanding
that
And
saying when he was
guess
its
face,
but
talking about Zip
-that
someone would
passage?
a
Zip
various methods of compression,
that achieves
in
it's pretty clear on
Q.
various
compression."
when you realize he's
files which will
order of
o:
Kantor was
"nor method nor amount
A.
dates,
right?
understanding about what
saying
filenames,
quote/unquote,
compression.
file,
and ——
it's
—-
there's
and they achieve
And one of
the methods
no amount of compression.
that
would be
method
zero;
is
that
correct.
A.
That's
Q.
And do you recall
Exclude
correct.
feature
that Mr.
Rhoa was
earlier?
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
asking you
,
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS; 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
128
A.
Yes.
Q.
I
would
like
you
to
turn
to
page
205
and
doing
as
requested)
206
Kantor.
(Witness
JlCHiARA:
that
Q.
And
just
to
says
"protecting
Now,
Nor
Q.
So
going
that
to
ask
I
Rhoa
a
Section
6
abuse."
didn't
point
you
to
exclude,
that
right?
him.
to
you
the
about
ask
the particular
WITNESS:
you
exclude
area
(Witness
THE
there's
asking you about
i'm going
would be
you,
against
Mr.
section when he was
A.
point
to
review
that
mentioned
0:
and
I
there.
So
emphasis.
reviewing)
Okay.
"CHIARA:
Q.
says
——
Okay.
It
says
specific
files
specific
file
or more
files,
rejected.
Do
you
see
"exclude".
from your
or
run
it
on
every one
Even i:
its
BBS
o:
a
the
sentence
And
then
after
says
you run
zipfile
those
it
there
which
files
is
where
"To
this
he
exclude
on
contains
a
one
automatically
name has been changed and even
if
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
Wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
it's
inside a
October 24, 2013
zipfile,
"right?
A.
That's
Q.
Would a person of
that have
what it
skill
in the
art
reading
some understanding what Kantor was
meaning with that
A.
skill
says.
I
sentence?
And
if
so,
saying or
what
is
that?
think that the meaning that a person of
in the art would already have about the Exclude
feature,
that
it causes
the matching contents
Q.
the
deletion of all
files
with
signatures.
I'm going to
ask you to
(Witness
doing
turn to page
as
82.
requested)
DICHIARA:
Q.
And Mr.
about page
?xc1ude
82
Rhoa didn't
when he was
‘eature,
did
don't
asking you to comment on the
he?
A.
I
Q.
So do you see
there's one that
ask you any questions
think he
starts
did.
there,
off
maybe
saying
A.
Yes.
Q.
"File integrity testing,
two paragraphs up,
"virus testing"?
testing for x_flag,
.C
_or
example,
trojans,
4’ggaa,.~-'m.a-
and
‘~
to
the
exclude
like
known
are
commercial
treated
the
files
same
- ‘es:-.‘
and
known
whether
z» >
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
UPLOAD
October 24, 2013
or ATTACH,"
A.
Yes.
Q.
Would
a
right?
person
skilled
in
the
art
have
an
understanding about what that passage was meaning in
terms
of
the
A.
I
X
flag?
didn't
if
——
I
so,
what
is
that?
actually don't understand your
question.
Q.
about
Okay.
the
Let me back up.
paragraph
Would
in
a
Let me
just
general.
person
of
skill
in
the
an understanding about what that paragraph was
A.
I
upload and attach were
about
art
have
saying?
think a person of skill in the art would
have to read back in the document,
O.
ask you
Okay.
But
the upload log
to figure out what
about.
earlier,
file,
Mr.
Rhoa was
for example.
asking you
Do you recall
that?
used
A.
Yes.
Q.
And he was
in
the
Exclude
A.
Yes.
Q.
If
ussv;{.a»~au:‘:,;;:.zmm::2..'~A1.-»;¢2..s.a'"s1.*: .'«.m.’“
I
asking you about
the X
flag
»,.:'NwmWxa«e~=-v3r4¢7
that’s
feature?
remember
~ b,=<.a-».‘vL/‘'n.:“"’A
correctly,
you
x;»;..m
had
some mention
; v.v.m.s.;. 9. . 2'~ =
.sz;a‘1&KuZ$:gu.iLY.s(a€aV*’»,.-'»-m‘ J!
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
131
whether
this
because
they might
was
would
be
used
to
ban
files
for
all
kind
there
have malware
or viruses,
but
some difficulty when he was
asking you,
can you
point
to
a
spot
in a
200—page
document
that
referred to
that.
Do
MR.
I
you
R{OA:
do
And he
A
No,
Q.
is
nor
I
in
with
did he?
in
the
art would
viruses?
-‘V<I.vHT¢m«1£~%»€f@E:i2"w§>$aWrn
leading.
an example of a
thing of which I
did
namely that an application of
the Exclude feature of the X flag would be
excluding known bad files,
a
82,
testimony you had
skill
Objection,
not produce in my cross;
the X ——
the
a person of
connection
it is
to page
him.
RHOA:
So
leading.
you
referring to
earlier about what
A.
Objection,
didn't point
this
MR.
that?
remember.
Q.
understand
remember
namely
Trojans
is a name for
certain kind of attacking file.
Q.
And
I'm going
to
shift
gears
from the Exclude
feature.
Do
r 3-
,-.:,., —, -/, \,rm$-J.S,.,,A,&,,\
M,
you
recall
.~.3;_ ..
Mr.
Rhoa
.,,\.;.,~,=;..,
asking
you
about
r~,~ .-. :. ,.— «
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
132
how Kantor
ZCS
formed a
procedure
in
A.
Oh,
Q.
Right.
contents
A.
Zip
file contents
signatures,
——
we talked about the y and the z procedure.
How does
Kantor
perfiorm a
Hip
file
signature?
So
the
Zip file contents
signature,
the
kind,
that's what the Zip file contents
signature,
the
variety,
the
Z
the CRCs
32
the
of
composes
the
the modulo
component files.
2
to
And
32
the mod 2
sum of the lengths of the uncompressed,
Z
is
sum of
to
the
if they're
11
uncompressed,
just the lengths,
the lengths of the inner
12
files.
And those two things constitute the Zip file
13
contents
14
15
Q.
signature.
Okay.
And
connection with
the
then
I'm going
to
True Name patents
ask
you
in
that
Mr.
Rhoa was
16
asking you about,
'791 patent,
'544,
‘S39,
and so
forth,
17
right?
18
They have a
19
20
item,
notion
of
a
compound data
right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
How do
21
the
True Name
patents
form a
True Name
for
form ——
how
do
22
those patents
a
compound data
.,_,,___i
W.
item?
.
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-4158
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
133
A.
True Name of
Name of
-—
is
the ——
a compound data
is
the -—
item is
a True
just say hash function of
the —— hash functions of the components.
Q.
Of the
A.
The pieces into which a file was divided,
compound file,
components meaning the
the pieces
Q.
Okay.
A.
It's
True
Name
of
the
Q.
Kantor
Name
—-
I
And in terms
formed a
the
Name
same
Zip
A.
of the
or
the
segment
the hashes
guess
of
file
just
True Names?
of the
segments or
that would be the True
focusing on that
contents
signature
True Name patents
compound data
item,
how
in
formed a
are those processes
different?
They are different in
think Kantor has
Name patents,
that's
of
set of True Names.
comparison to the way the
True
a
of the compound file.
the hash of
the True Name of the
segment?
I
a length also.
think,
that the —-
oh,
Not Kantor.
also have a
length,
no.
I
The True
but I
think
optional.
So if you have
include a length,
a True Name
then at least in
that does
not
that respect the True
Name computation would be different from the Kantor Zip
, Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
file
contents
signature
Q.
*5
similar
But
or
If
the
length,
some
it had the
RHOA:
A.
Q.
calculation.
length,
would they be
di;ferent?
MR.
had
October 24, 2013
Objection,
it had the
length,
they would be
they would be more
And do you recall
questions
form.
about
the
that
——
if we
similar.
Mr.
second data
Rhoa was
item in
asking
you
the
patents?
some
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
questions
second data
for
Yes.
Q.
And
he
Do
was
where
you
the
inner
file.
Do
Kantor,
Kantor
remember
he
have
asked you
in
you whether
recall
this
that?
the
second
or not the contents
you
I don‘t remember
of
does
asking
whether it contains
A.
the
about
item.
A.
item,
And in terms
data
signatures
that?
the questions,
but
I
remember
subject.
Q.
questions.
Was
that
Maybe
questioning he was
a
not
fair
characterization
verbatim but
asking
the
line
ofi
the
o:
you?
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
www.henders0n1ega1serVices.com
PATENT NOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
MR.
of
As
I
Q.
So
in
data
of
signatures
data
of
item,
item,
A.
Yes.
Q.
And what
item,
second data
the
inner
what
item
is
the
data
the
files.
the patent,
right?
is
The
True
the patent
is
Names
have
a
second
data
item
right?
is
the
data
of
the
patent?
Those are
the True Names
of the
segments
of
compound file.
Q.
the
the
data
And in turning to
second data
the
second
The
A.
the
that
leading.
it was.
item?
Q.
in
recall,
data
contents
second
Objection
second
A.
the
RHOA:
A.
the
October 24, 2013
Are
second
A.
data
second data
item
They are
in
very
MR.
DICHZARA:
MR.
RHOA:
MR.
DICHIARA:
choice?
off
those
the
Is
In terms
record
raw"::.«.a‘
on
Kantor
items
in
similar
the patent
or
and
different?
similar.
I
he
have
no
going to
Yeah,
I
further
questions.
wmaesyi:%W.«$‘;M2»/5z'cr~4->*vl§ux=<1’
read and sign?
think.
Do
of the read and sign,
we
have
a
we can go
this.
‘:&‘mzL£2s‘z"JA<,.%'.«“~.L:. fl
Henderson Legal Services, Inc,
202-220-415 8
www.hendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
(Off
(Deposition
H{Jau;<'_r‘§vn<(,.fl~'~,»;~¢1tse.;4. ‘v'.».”—«.wIAa.§!c$§!5Lw3:1i’~;. d. <’
' ~12's>.1A—.:T;2/1/;.«"7Az>.‘1§:s£.a§ké&1.>‘*&.."92'
Record
concluded at
3:15 p.m.)
~'~~»o::;u':,v.g;-;a:.,n»z;,vs«.»07.a¢,«amV“mm"
'
§»a'N%\.;m;y..«»w»:«14e>aszc2,:.<;¢:,;;»,;a».u5,*’~:a'3.-§A:v&§’é:2ri»:h‘.:aL.Vha‘
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-415 8
Discussion)
,
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
PATENTNOS: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
C1ar.l<, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
ACKNOWLEDGMENT
OF DEPONENT
I, _.D;ouglas_Cia1:K,_E.t1.D.: do hereby
acknowledge
foregoing
that
testimony,
and complete
me,
and any
Sheet
I have read and examined the
and the
same
transcription of
corrections
appear
the
on
is
a
true,
correct
testimony given by
the
attached Errata
signed by me.
_,J.O129./1,3,.
WfP3E§}Ei£i§,,E3E_L,WWim
(SIGNATURE)
Henderson ,Legal Services, Inc.
202-220-41 5 8
www.h.ende.1?son1egalserVices.c0m
PATENTNOS.: 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Clark, Ph.D., Douglas W.
October 24, 2013
C
COMMONWEALTH
COUNTY
OF
E
R T
I
F
I
C
A
T
E
a
Registered
OF MASSACHUSETTS
PLYMOUTH
I,
Rosemary
F.
Grogan,
Professional Reporter and Notary Public duly
commissioned and qualified in and
of Massachusetts,
That
for the Commonwealth
do hereby certify:
DOUGLAS W.
CLARK,
?H.D.,
the witness
whose deposition is hereinbefore set forth,
identified
and
sworn by me,
at
the
office
Cutler Pickering Hale And Dorr LLP,
Boston,
Massachusetts,
60
on October 24,
was duly
of Wilmer
State Street,
2013,
between the
hours of 9:20 a.m. and 3:15 p.m., and that the foregoing
transcript is a true record of the testimony given by
such witness to the best of my ability.
I
further
certify that
this
was
Cross—Examination deposition of Douglas W.
the
Clark,
Ph.D.,
taken on behalf of Patent Owner, and that counsel
EMC/VM ARE were present, and also had Redirect
Examination of
Douglas W.
Clark,
for
Ph.D.
I further certify that I am not related to any
the parties in this matter by blood or marriage, and
o:
t
I
am
in
no way
IN
WITNESS
interested
WHEREOF,
in
I
the
have
outcome
hereunto
or
-his
set
nand and affixed my notarial seal this 24th day of
October,
2013.
Rosemary
CSR No.
My Commission Expires:
~ ~r-.«.=.mRA.-.“”"::u‘-}:r':a}.v,im.\‘.xk.E>~.'.:5;(L;¢.'
,
202-220-4158
F.
Grogan,
ll2993
December
15,
2017
‘§m.»;a:s»2a;~;24.s.*~=a:m«n.\;a'».m--sa,>.~.r;,:,,.»,u«;mw«,~m-u;~»~»»¢,~x-«;,v.mgg,—W-2:2»um‘m;_p¢;zr.r~,......;.'-'»m.:.a-r
S
«
ii
' "'
Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
1PR2013—00082; -00083; -00084; -00085; —O0O86; —00087
Patent Nos. 5,978,791; 6,415,280; 7,945,544; 7,945,539; 7,949,662; 8,001,096
Errata Sheet of Dr. Clark’s October 24, 2013 Deposition
ERRATA SHEET
Deponent: Douglas W. Clark, Ph.D.
Date:
October 24, 2013
.
__‘:Miss Vreeland” to “Ms. Vreeland”
14:3
“Scoping” to “Copying”
28:16
“remarking material for exclusion, C” to “ ‘re marking
material for exclusion, see’ ”
30:4
“and” to “an”
35:16
“in” to “if”
F41:14
“bare” to “there”
64:7
“float” to “flow”
103:17
“740” to “7:40”
105:3
“make” to “many make”
112:13
“that” to “would”
120:12
“hot” to “not”
_10/29/13
__/Douglas W. Clark/
Date
Douglas W. Clark, Ph.D.
IPR2013-00082 (U.S. Patent No. 5,978,791)
lPR2013—00083 (U.S. Patent No. 6,415,280)
IPR2013—00084 (U.S. Patent No. 7,945,544)
IPR2013—00085 (U.S. Patent No. 7,945,539)
IPR2013-00086 (U.S. Patent No. 7,949,662)
IPR2013—00087 (U.S. Patent No. 8,001,096)
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